Prius vs. Hummer

It's been refuted on most of the main Prius discussion groups since it came out a while ago. The most recent public thread is here:

(the "lifetime" of each vehicle is vastly out of proportion to make the hummer look better, the story uses very old information on a Canadian nickel mine that has been working hard to clean itself up (and is currently much cleaner than the story asserts), the story came from a source known to do reports favorable to whomever paid for the report, etc.)

Thanks, I'll go take a look. I did wonder about that 100,000 mile lifetime they assigned to the Prius.

It is quite true what is said in the article, there is only one paramount thing to talk about: the nickel they are talking about is used for every nickel based battery: Ni-MH and Ni-Cd, i.e. cell phones, toys, digital cameras, laptop etc... The part of them used for the Prius is only a very small percentage and in any case is used by Toyota only because already developed and used in big quantity. I do not believe that, without the development of Prius, the use of Ni for the batteries would have been significantly lower to be perceived. In addition I do believe that the production of the Hummer, since it is heaviest in every part of it, requires much more energy to melt and work the steel. Claudio

why would any GM product outlive a toyota? that's not the norm for sure..if they're assuming you throw the prius away after the batteries go, that's just bad logic.

bob

NOTE: After I sent this letter to the editor, I got an e-mail reply from the student:

". . . In all honesty, I threw the paper together in thirty minutes, checked my attribution, and sent it into my editor because I had nothing better to do. I can tell you put some effort into writing and researching this, and I would like to return the effort by delving into the information you provided me. "

My point is it does no good to bring the facts and data to a Prius friendly forum (nor a an anti-hybrid forum.) However, the editors of writers have vested interest in credibility. It behoves us to take the time and send an ORIGINAL letter to the editor. That is the only way we can get the lazy and incompetent journalists to go into advertising, where they belong.

- - - - -

After checking with the editor, I understand they will review but may or may not elect to publish this rebuttal:

Dear Editor,

Chris Demorro's opinion piece, "Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage" suffers from a lack of fact checking. He claims ". . . their ultimate 'green car' is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America" copied from a flawed _Daily_ _Mail_ article without at least fact checking the environmental record of the Inco Sudbury Canadian plant,

Frank Javor, Superintendent, Health and Environment, CVRD Inco Smelting Operations e-mailed their annual emissions data going back to 1974, 23 years before Toyota sold their first Prius. Since then, INCO has made a

90% reduction in SO(2) and INCO emissions continue to go down.

Chris failed to check the amount of nickel used in hybrid batteries, about 200 pounds per vehicle or 30 million pounds for 150,000 existing Prius versus the annual Canadian nickel output, over 380 million pounds. Nickel production is driven by the vastly larger market for stainless steel and other high temperature metals.

Failure to fact check is compounded when the flawed CNW Marketing report is cited while the "Institute for Lifecycle Environmental Assessment",

from Carnegie MellonUniversity, reports 73% of the energy used comes from operation, notmanufacturing. Only CNW Marketing makes this false claim and compoundsthe error by using dollars instead of Joules, an energy unit. Those who have read the CNW Marketing report can confirm a large number of false claims including assignment of shorter vehicle lifetimes to hybrids, excessively development costs, false recycling claims, and a claim that hybrids are "a style.' This last lie suggests that if someone had a gas-only Camry and a hybrid Camry, they would drive the gas Camry even with $3/gal gas because the hybrid is "a style."

An opinion piece that states the opposite of the facts and data is deliberately misleading to the point of propaganda. Hybrids aren't for everyone but in this case, Chris failed to fact check and at best, his piece was misleading.

Robert J. Wilson Sr. Network Engineer

Me too - my 2002 had 103K miles when I bought it!

Mike

Why wouldn't it? Or a ford product? How many Chevies and Fords have served one career as a police car and a second as a taxi? I've never seen a Toyota do so.

Fords and GMs almost seem tailored for fleet service. They typically have lower initial purchase costs and are reliable enough during the warranty period. After that they have a period of moderate cost failures before they descend into "beater" status. The first phase is attractive to police and utility service, while the second phase is attractive to taxi service.

I've hung around Ford and GM fora (among others) recently, looking for ideas for a car for my new-driver son-in-law. As a DIYer the second phase doesn't worry me, assuming the car doesn't have common expensive "gotchas." Would he and I prefer a Honda or Toyota or Hyundai? Sure... but the price of a decent one is out of his range.

Mike

Isn't this thread a little "apples and oranges"? I don't see much to compare between a Hummer and a Prius.

I have an '01 Prius with about 133K miles on it, and it feels like I've just passed the initial break-in period.

Anyone have a good idea where I might sell it? I'm about ready to move up to the current generation Prius. i.e. '04 or newer...

Thanks! - Greg

Guru Says GOODBYE To Search Eng>>>

I KNEW there was a reason I wanted to bring this up here! :-)

My Prius and I are smiling!

You need to do a Google search for "taxi toyota". For good measure, "Ford Escape taxi".

Bob Wilson

Craig's List is popular, but I found mine in the classifieds of our local paper. The seller lives a bit over 100 miles away, but for a car that isn't too far to go. Most fora also don't complain about one quick post to say you have a car of the forum's type for sale, but be sure to include your location.

The seller did mention a number of people responding to the newspaper ad (which didn't give the miles) shrank when they heard it had 103K miles on the clock. That's in what I consider the "sweet spot" for used cars - it's easy to tell how they have been treated, and they still have 100K to 200K miles left. 133K still scares some people, mostly geezers like me who remember when engines and front ends were getting pretty ragged by 100K. I consider all properly maintained and driven Hondas and Toyotas to be in their prime in the 100Ks. (No rust around here.)

Patience... there must be a number of Prius enthusiasts who are looking for a used "Classic."

Mike

The other day, I figured out how a Hummer mileage record might get set. Start with say four Hummers and equip each one with a front-bumper, tow bar and rear ball. Link them all together to make a 'Hummer Train."

The front Hummer drives until it runs out of gas. The second one disconnnects and the empty Hummer is added to the end. Repeat this as many times as necessary to run all of the Hummers out of gas.

Calculate the MPG using the gas for each Hummer and the mileage for all of them. The trick is Hummer mileage is so low that even towing, it doesn't go down that much. With the front-to-bumper towing, they are drafting each other like bicyclists.

Bob Wilson

Okay... but what do we do with the train of Hummers when they are all out of gas?

Mike

Pick up all the drivers in a Prius and transport them with gas cans to the nearest gas station ?

A Prius with a trailer and 55 gallon drums.

Bob Wilson

Why are so many people against clean air?

Although the Prius is a champion at clean operation, the Hummer isn't nearly as bad as cars in earlier times were. Certainly if somebody actually believed the propaganda, they would see the Prius as trading clean air for dirty land and water.

Misinformation is the enemy of us all.

Mike

Hey Mike, why not show us a fully documented, scientifically vetted link to support your ideas?