Reliability, maintenance

My '05 is covered for '05 so I probably won't opt for 3rd party maintenance anytime soon. Worked great out of the box.

You are not likely to get a lot of responses to this. The Prius have been pretty reliable as delivered. The '05 is the same as the '04 (I've been told) so there shoudl not be any "first year bugs" to worry about.

Most cars have specialized tools now. For instance, the process for checking the idle speed on my Ford requires a special fitting and a bottle of propane. The gas engine and running gear of the Prius are like any other new car; Without the books you shouldn't mess with it.

The rest of it should not need any normal service, so it doesn't matter whether the it shoud be done by the dealer or not.

Daniel

The vast majority of regularly scheduled maintenances could be a DIY job, or done by any competent mechanic. (mainly oil/filter change and tire rotation every 5,000 miles/6 months in the US)

Read the scheduled maintenance guide here:

05 Note that in the US the Prius comes with 3 years/36,000 miles of Toyota Roadside Assistance free with the car, too.

I can't speak of 05's but the only thing I would have an outside vendor do to my Prius is wash, dry and wax or rotate and balance the tires.

KK

Considering I just spent some "quality time" on a tow truck (bum starter, but not a Prius) I asked the driver how many electric or hybrids he's towed (he's with AAA of So. Calif and gets an eyeful). He's said none so far which is good news.

However, he did say he would be less than willing to tow a hybrid with a breached battery. There is a lot going on about who will clean up the mess in case of an accident and he doesn't want to wreck the bed of his truck should a leaky one be in need of a tow. This will be interesting. He mentioned a possibly callout of a fire department's HazMat team, but all this is still in the speculative mode until he gets involved in one...and the pricey disposal fee which I'm sure will occur in California.

C'mon. Someone go smash one up so we can find out what really is going to happen! ;o)

I'm still waiting to see the "fine print" on the 10 year California battery warranty to see if it is pro-rated (steeply) somehow or if it is an, indeed, "free battery for 10 years." I can't get a battery to last more than 2 years so I'm skeptical (my laptop batteries only last 1-2 years for me and I think they are the same cell material). If it takes a charge and the operating interval is short, it may not be a warranty issue but merely a "You can't go very far" issue unless you replace it for $3500-$4500. Maybe it excludes normal wear and tear? Dunno, but I'm skeptical on a "free" 10 year battery switchout from anyone. Maybe 1 year, but 10?!

Someone please post the actual Toyota battery warranty wording.

B~

"Hybrid Vehicle System Warranty

This warranty covers repairs needed to correct defects in material or workmanship of the components listed here and supplied by Toyota, subject to the exceptions indicate under "What is not covered" on pages 11-12:

Battery control module Hybrid control module Hybrid vehicle battery Inverter with converter

Coverage is for 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first."

Then, from page 11:

What is not covered

...damage or failures resulting directly or indirectly from any of the following:

fire, accidents, theft, abuse, negligence, misuse (example racing or overloading), improper repairs, alteration, tampering, use of non-genuine Toyota Accessories, lack of maintenance, improper maintenance, airborne chemicals, tree sap, road debris (including stone chips), rail dust, salt, hail, floods, wind storms, lightning & other environmental condition, water contamination. altered odometer, total loss vehicles.... pretty much what an honest person would expect would be excluded.

It's repair or replacement at no cost. There is no prorated BS.

That is interesting and thanks for the info. Looks like 8 years instead of the 10 years I've read about. Still, having come from a Ford product where their warranty was (even in their owner's manual) "Pay for the first repair and any subsequent repair on the same item is warranted for life by Ford" ended up being nothing but a false promise which they secretly did away with a few years into ownership. Never a letter, nadda. Just disappeared until I took the car back for same repairs (water pumps, alternators, radiators, etc).

I still cannot fathom a free battery for 8 years! Sounds too good to be true (call me suspicious of advertising claims). I have noticed that in the Central Valley of Calif. I don't see too many Prius's on the road (maybe 1 in the past year) compared to the LA valley region where I'll see 3-4 a day. I wonder if they are limiting sales to areas where the battery will be less suspect to fail due to heat? Maybe too many rednecks in the Valley with their F-150 trucks.

B~

There are actually two batteries in the Prius. The one we have been talking about is the "traction" battery, but there is a smaller (downright undersized) auxiliary 12 volt battery. The aux battery doesn't do much more than boot the computer system when you turn the car on, but it has demonstrated just the sort of problem you have experienced. It is a little better because it isn't mounted under the hood, but is out of the engine heat. (I used to live in the Phoenix area, and I never got a battery to last through more than 2 summers in our cars with batteries under the hood. Two of them exploded when I hit the starter.) The small size and "sealed lead-acid" design conspire to make it last only a few years. Why it costs $200 US is anybody's guess.

The traction battery is something different altogether. It is a nickle-metal hydride battery that is carefully managed by the hybrid computer and encased in a metal housing, with fan cooling controlled by the hybrid computer. They have proven extremely reliable and can be reasonably expected to last the life of the car. 8 years is only what Toyota is willing to bet their money on against the increased salability the warranty brings. It is like the 3 year warranty they offer on the car overall... there is no reason to expect the battery to only last 8, 10 or 20 years; they just bet there will be negligible failure rate in the first 8 years. Our lead-acid communications batteries (the flooded cells) in our microwave sites at work typically last

25 years, in an environment similar to the one the traction battery lives in. The NiMH traction battery should be in the same range.

Mike

• The warranty in California (and any other states that use the California emission standards) is 120,000 miles and 120 months.

earle

*

150,000 miles.

Sounds like you shoulda sued them. The warranty is a contract. Was something done to the car to invalidate the warranty?

The warranty is a contract. If mine fails within the warranty period and Toyota does not perform I will sue them.

Isn't it a glass mat design?

They can warrantee it because it's not one battery per se, it is a set of batteries in a series (six rows of 12?) and if one or two fails, you wouldn't notice the difference. Also, there are NO MOVING PARTS. NiMH batteries have an extraordinary lifespan of charge/discharge cycles, which is further reinforced by the computerized charging system.

KK

No. Nothing done to the car to invalidate it. It was just a Ford secret until something went wrong (again) and they ran. Remember their under the hood computer that failed in heat? They ran from that. Probaby because they could and would you really hire a $500 lawyer for a $300 part? The Prius battery may be another matter though....

Wouldn't surprise me if they found a way out and blame it on the owner somehow (lack of maintenance or something). Seems to be harder and harder to get a warranty covered these days since dealers aren't pleased with the low reimbursements provided by manufacturer's rather than what they can get out of the individual owner. I'm sure a lot will hinge on the dealer's attitude at that time and the story they tell Toyota or visa-versa.

I had a normal car battery fail once and the out was "It still takes a charge." "Well, yeah, it does, but for how long?" - it's not anything like new. My Ni-Hi hydride batteries in my laptops usually fail by not working as long as when new (one runs for 5 minutes on battery now verses 1 1/4 hours when new...but it still takes a charge). Will this be Toyota's scheme? It runs for 6 blocks and then it's dead. "But, it still takes a charge!" Dealer: "If you want it to run further, we got this Super-Turbo Enhancement battery over here will let go for $4500."

Dunno. Guess I better lose weight so I can get into one and find out the answers for myself.

B~

I think the primary mistake too many people make is focusing on the battery, although it seems to be remarkably reliable. Believe me, if there were a problem we would know it by now. We knew it about the aux battery years ago. There are at least half a dozen parts in any car that will set you back as much as the Prius battery even if you were to buy one new. If your present car has an automatic transmission, have you priced a replacement and checked the the life expectancy, and how long was the warranty? (The Prius has no transmission per se.) If the timing belt fails, (the Prius doesn't have one) how much is the repair if it involves "just" a new cylinder head, or if it is cheaper to replace the engine? The air bags should be replaced every ten years according to most car owner's manuals, although some now say 15 years... at about $1000 apiece. How much for an ABS pump? Or shock absorbers (Volvo wants $500 apiece for the rear shocks on my '85 760 wagon, plus installation!). If your car has a turbo, have you priced one of *those* babies recently? (My Volvo's is $2500 plus labor, about $3200 US total) Or the ECU found in every car sold in America in two decades? How many of the parts in that list does your present car have, and how many are warrantied for 8 years / 100K miles standard?

The fact is a replacement main battery is available from wrecking yards (and the hybrid system includes built-in diagnostics to test it) for about the same price as a new bumper or windshield from Toyota. But the batteries are a *lot* more reliable than windshields or bumpers. You don't worry about how long your car tires will last because your bike tires only last 1000 miles, do you? Become informed: the Prius battery isn't your old lead-acid, either.

It's all a matter of perspective. I don't want you to stop obsessing about the Prius battery and start obsessing about the car you have now (although you would be more justified). Just don't worry about either (unless your car has some serious known problems), because we were not born to live in fear. Don't let the irrational fearmongers distract you from the facts. Or you could just buy a Prius and improve your chances. (BTW... you do know the Prius is a mid-sized car, don't you? If you can get yourself out of a chair I doubt you need to lose weight to fit.)

Mike

B. Peg wrote: [ groundless speculation about being scewed by a car dealer he doesn;t go to for a car he doesn't own deleted ]

Had to laugh at that. I guess bent peg is saying that he's somewhat over 500 pounds. That's the only way that he would be too fat to fit.

Seriously, for every one else's benefit, this guy's a troll. He's done a fairly good job of making wild, baseless suppositions about the car. Please don't take any of his 'comments' as based on fact. Look up the facts yourself.

I like my Prius. I'd buy a second one if I had a need. I highly recommend it to anyone looking for a new car. Very low maintenance, very economical and the resale price has held up super well compared to other, similarly sized cars.

Daniel

Not quite 500 lbs., but enough where I hate to getting into a low-to-the ground vehicle and then climbing up and out of one. Truck and SUV heights are better suited for me. I know GMC and Toyota are supposedly coming out with a hybrid (truck/SUV) as well and a more reasonable height for tall fat people.

Dunno 'bout that. If one doesn't ask questions, then one is pretty much left with what one gets, no? There's no base on what to gauge the car's longevity now.

Here's a fact for you Daniel: I know my regular car batteries last maybe 2 years. When one crapped, it was between 1st and 2nd gear in the middle of an intresection. RPM dropped, no field for alternator with a load of car accessories, and it died right there and right now. Wouldn't surprise me if any electric car acted the same.

Oh, same longevity goes for the laptop batteries which are supposedly the same material as the hybrid's battery. Call me skeptical or a troll. Suit yourself. I'd expect anything else on the car to last longer, price excluded, but a car with a battery expectancy of 8 to 10 years is beyond the realm of reality from my own experiences. And no one knows what to expect when the hybrid's battery begins a shorter charge capacity from chemical depletion or aged internal resistance, do they?

I' agree on that -- so far, but at 10 years who's going to invest that much money in any car much less for a battery? It won't be worth enough to sell for $3500 (my current car at 10 years is worth $500 or so I'm told at the Toyota and Dodge dealerships). I doubt if the Prius in 10 years will be worth the money for a new battery alone. That is much more of a fact.

B~

I'd call BP a soft-core troll, more valuable than annoying. (Lots of people would call me annoying, too!) The questions are appropriate, even if they seem to lean toward the FUD side. Worries about new technology are part of the landscape of our rocket-ride techno age.

On the subject of computer (and cell phone) NiMH batteries, the difference is one of design criteria. The number one criterion for portable electronics rechargable batteries is energy density for the volume. The number two criterion is rapid charge rate. The number three criterion is short, meteoric life (no kidding!)

Computer and cell phone batteries are modestly priced, rugby-playing devices that live to die. The consumer is drawn by the qualities of energy capacity (how long will the battery power my device?) and rapid recharge (how long do I have to wait?) Price is not as important as either of those as long as the target consumer isn't completely outraged and the interval between replacement isn't so short that the consumer vows never to buy one of

*those* again. Within those constraints, the higher the price and the shorter the life expectancy the more profitable the battery is to manufacture.

For those reasons, the internal structure of a portable device battery is very different from that of a hybrid system battery. The plates are thinner and shaped for maximum surface area, with separators made of thin, inexpensive materials. The battery temperature rises sharply during charging and the materials are redeposited roughly, ensuring short life. The batteries are expected to be drained flat at least occasionally and may be overcharged or overheated or charged too fast... more profitable that way.

A friend of mine used to work in a torpedo factory, and he was telling me about the steam (peroxide and ethanol) turbines that powered the torpedoes. They were about the size of an oatmeal box and had no lubrication system at all, but produced over 500 hp! I was amazed; how did the turbine survive? He replied they only had to run for a few minutes. Design criteria!

More to the topic, the wet cells that power our communication sites appear to be identical in construction to the batteries we replace every couple years in our cars, except for the clear cases. But they last more than 20 years because they are made to - and they aren't made to crank an engine. Most of them reach the end of their life when the positive post grows out of the case - they still hold a charge pretty much as well as they did when Jimmy Carter was president (our battery guy load tests them twice a year).

Mike