Uh ... yeah; whatever. BTW, I don't have an 'Xi. It's an '88 535is. RWD. LSD. If it's *really* slippery, it's a Jeep Grand Cherokee ... because the Audi won't start!
*Drifting*? WTF are you talking about? Either it's that 'Rice Rocket' trend from Japan (for which a response is beneath my dignity) or the last book you read on performance driving was written a decade before Mario Andretti won a world championship. I don't know if I qualify for your definition of a "really good driver", but I *do* instruct for BMW and Audi club driving schools. You don't 'drift' an M3! If you do, you're taking your life in your hands because the recovery runs a surprisingly high probability of snap rolling the car! I've been directly involved in racing and speed events since about
1988 and my experience says that your argument is diametrically opposed to fact.
A stunning non sequitur. Even if it weren't a hopelessly desperate attempt to change the subject, *who the hell cares*? Driving *any* car is inherently unsafe! My BMW doesn't have *any airbags* - and I
*like it* that way! So why don't you just stay home while those of who know what it is to *enjoy* driving (something *not* from Ingolstadt or Neckarsulm or stuffed with more high explosives than a fireworks display) do so? Here's something for you to chew on: BMW
507.
-- C.R. Krieger Life's too short to drive boring cars.
The (German) Ford V4 that SAAB used was designed before timing belts arrived. Ford UK made a V4 and V6 with gear driven camshafts - and they used to strip. They were made of fibre for noise reasons.
"dizzy" escribió en el mensaje news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
The Accord engine you're talking about is only efficient past redline, and its torque is ridiculous by comparison. The mileage figures you're talking about are only good when you drive calm. If you "nail" the Honda, you'll get not only way less torque and satisfaction but also worse mileage.
"C.R. Krieger" escribió en el mensaje news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com...
With the weight of so much experience on your back, it's plain to see you've got behind the times in this aspect. The Jeep Grand Cherokee is a thing of the past! Knowledgeable people talk Tuareg, Cayenne, Range Rover, and Discovery, when efficiency is concerned - not that I am one of those :) The Audi will start, but then again, so will your 535 if pulled by a Land Rover Defender!
I will never doubt how good a driver you may be, because I live miles apart from where you are and much as I'd like to meet you, this is quite unlikely. Oh, well, I seem to remember you call this "tailback trailing whatnot", only I've seen people who do it for a very long time and even on the wet! I remember this as something really impressive.
Why change the subject? I used to drive an Alfa 75 Quadrifoglio V6 about and I must admit I've never had so much fun, not either when I tried a 325i. Still, I wouldn't replace my Audi with any BMW that was not an M3 (a pure joy) or a 330xd (one of the best all-rounders). My enjoyment is better fulfilled when I see many aggressive BMW drivers can't catch up on a really winding mountain pass even though they have bigger engines. Yeah, maybe the feeling is not the same as that in the BMW behind me, but guess who's got the biggest smile on their face?
I'll dig out my Autocar if my nephews haven't swiped it, but they recently did an article on the most popular cars in the UK once you remove fleet sales, and I think BMW moved up quite a bit on the list. Where I work, you could put up a sign on the parking garage as a German car dealership and no one would bat an eye: Bimmers, Mercs, and Porsches galore. I'm shopping for a Passat just to stand out. :-) Emanuel
They bought snow tires, which shockingly few people do anymore; they assume all-weather tires are good enough, no matter what, then blame the car when it's the tires not gripping that's the problem. I'm guilty of not buying snow tires in decades, but I'm in downtown Chicago and things are plowed pretty quickly here so I can get away with it. Also my winter beater is the 944 - easy to push out when it gets stuck. Emanuel
Let me jump in here real quick. I happen to be a 4x4 enthusiast and enjoy a great amount of offroading out here in the beautiful West. In our club's annual extravaganza's we always hire a tri-roller to the site and always have SUV's and 4x4's of various models, makes and levels of customization compete. And when we go out on trails we have members of every marquee persuasion.
*****the only out-of-box AWD/4x4 cars, SUV's or trucks that ever beat the tri-roller (three vehicle wheels on rollers and one wheel on solid substrate, all which changes from wheel to wheel as the vehicle tries to ascend over the ramp) are the Jeep Grand Cherokee with Quadra-Drive, not Quadra-Trac, and the BMW "x" models in either 3 series or X5/X3 form*****
Nothing else has ever made it over the ramp......nothing, and we have seen every model and make on the road in the USA. Quattro, on various Audis, all the LR vehicles, Land Cruiser, 4Matic, Suburu, 4-Motion, Cayenne, Toureg...the list goes on. The tri-roller is the perfect test of which system offers torque to the needed point(s) at the four corners of the vehicle.
The first measure of capability is how the vehicle tries to power the tractioned wheel(s), the next is what rubber it is fitted with. Outside of that, and before issues like articulation and approach/departure/breakover angles, throttle tip-in, gear ratios etc., nothing else matters yet. On slippery conditions, particularly uphill conditions, how the power is applied is the most important factor (assuming proper rubber).
I like the Rangies, and they are better than stock Jeeps in certain areas, but they don't do well in this type of condition. Particularly given their rather high weights. And the Cayenne and Toureg are pretty fair awd units, but also pretty much hype in real difficult conditions. Don't even think that Quattro is the equal of any of those mentioned. Car magazines don't have a clue when it comes to real 4WD/AWD functionality.
Your test is a valid test of whatever it's designed to test. Perhaps as a discussion of uphill driving with very slippery or loose surfaces it's valid. As a test of street driving, I can't see that it matters much.
I have always contemplated the Land Rover Defender as the most efficacious off-road beast and I doubt it very much it can't make it up your three-roller, if anything else can. Then again, if you'd elaborate on why Quadra Drive and the X could possibly be better than the rest of those you mention, I might get to be enlightened :) In the meantime, I have much more than a fair amount of reasonable doubt that your test is not biased.
In our country roads here in Europe, it is usually Cherokees that get stuck first on difficult terrain, and I have yet to see the Porsches and Tuaregs perform, but I can tell you that just about any Land Rover - except for the Freelander, beats the whole legion of Cherokees hands down.
JP Roberts
"Jess Englewood" escribió en el mensaje news:oySoc.54$ snipped-for-privacy@news.uswest.net...
CRK can always be trusted to come up with something like that... I have no airbags either and I like it that way too...
So does my daughter who can ride in the front in *my* car but not any other one that we or various other nearby family members have owned in the last 7 years.
Oh, I agree, I was speaking only to the specific statement I jumped in on. There's no doubt in my mind a Toureg or Cayenne drives better on the street than a JGC :^)
That would actually be the Hummer, original version
It can't....as a stock vehicle.
Land Rover's 4x4 system is not predicated on 4 wheels locked to one and other, but rather two axles locked to one and other. And the planetary center diff does not effect apparent torque transfer fast enough. Remember Land Rover's design is predicated upon the belief that planting 4 wheels, by their tremendous articulation, is the way to effect the best traction. But that won't cut it where the traction patch moves from one wheel to the other quickly.
Remember my comment was about vehicles in the US. When Defenders were available here locking axles were not an option. If LR now offers defenders out-of-box with locking axles then I have no doubt it would make the ramp, but as supplied here with open axles that is simply not the case.
In spite of that I do have agreement with LR that open axles create a more reliable offroading machine in most cases.
Being a Rover fanatic, it is unlikely enlightenment is in your future :^)
Joking of course, but really it is matter of the speed with which the 4x4 system allows the evidence of torque to the requiring contact patch as well as the ratio of torque being made availbable to a single contact patch. On the tri-roller the shift from roller to substrate happens in inches, and then happens again and again and it is the simple truth that only the Quadra-Drive and "x" vehicles make it.
One disclaimer here: The Hummer won't fit on a tri-roller, though I have liitle doubt it could make it easy. On our Moab runs Hummers, the real ones, not the H2's work as the gunners and they make most of the obstacles everyone else struggles with, easy, forward or backward. A truly, unbelievably, astoundingly, capable vehicle.
Most Landie people do :^) But everyone tries to drive over the *same* ramp. A ramp that basically forces any vehicle to drive with only one wheel, while moving that wheel around the four corners of the vehicle, quickly.
There are lots of 2 wheel drive Cherokees, lots of Quadra-Trac Cherokees, lots of bad tires, and lots of bad drivers. Out test is on "Quadra-Drive Grand Cherokees". You would have to be far more specific if I am to lend any credence to your experience on "country roads".
Ah...now you've earned another Landie merit badge. Bigger "nuts", you haven't said that yet though.
But I drive offroad, in the snows, muds, gravel and elevations of the Rocky Mountain as well as the slick-rock and formations of Moab, and we have all kinds of wheelers in our club and in almost every case it comes down to tires and driver. My personal opinion is that the most capable offroad machines are #1) Hummer (original) and #2) in no particular order: Jeep (TJ,YJ,CJ), D90 (not D110...too long), and a number of FJ's (indeed Land Cruiser probably makes the very best full line of offroad 4x4's).
Your insecurities caused to you to perceive my reply to be a comment against Land Rover. But I can only tell the truth.......it is your problem to inject a sense of proportion to your perpsective.
BMW appears in the UK top 10 in the month of March. The data for the second quarter should be interesting as, possibly, fleet sales are declining with the changes in company car tax and increasing extended warranties (reducing risk and hassle for the private driver).
Duhhhh.... No, I don't, Fred. I included the HP numbers as evidence of the motors having "similar power figures".
They're pretty damn close in that regard, as well. I'd post the car's weights, but I'm afraid you'd sarcastically ask me whether I thought if weight was a very good indicator of efficiency.
The subject was touched on in "Re: How much does an OEM e46 M3 hood weigh??" Think of it in the context of how much weight is on the rear wheels (or front wheels). When you lift your foot from the throttle, what happens: you are no longer causing a weight transfer to the rear of the car. If the lessened weight causes the rear tires to lose their grip *while the tires have a lateral load* (ie, you're in a turn), the rear will slip and the rear of the car will rotate towards the outside of the turn, resulting in oversteer (the car turns more than you've turned the wheel.)
"fbloogyudsr" escribió en el mensaje news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com...
In the case of an M3, it is more the to the point mentioning that oversteer is generally the result of applying a generous amount of HP on the rear wheels at the beginning of a turn (ESP off), applying steering correction and then carry on modulating with the accelerator pedal and steering as the need demands.
Thank you. Why anyone would decide to play the "my car has more airbags than yours" game in a thread on Audi/BMW/Saab repairs is beyond me. Maybe Roberts, here, is doing a research paper on how many times he can totally divert a thread with non sequiturs ...
Same here. She even brags about it to her friends. BTW, you managed to snip off the *number* of the BMW up there: "507". No bags, no roll bars, popup or otherwise, no 'soft' or 'rounded' controls inside. Owner-added lap belts. Known leaky carbs (from the factory!) with the gas ducted from a catch tray down onto the ground. "EPA? Who's that?" Still, BMW's best 1959 drive.
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