Re: SON of reliability of used cars in BMW 5 series bracket - 48 Hours from Purchase

Are you buying a car or marrying the dealer?

The cars you listed are very, VERY different machines. The fact that you are concentrating on some silly little dealer detail (which is frankly neither here nor there), while totally ignoring the differences between the cars themselves, says that you either haven't actually driven them, or don't care what your car drives like.

Possibly buying the car, "AFTER" building an opinion of the dealer.

I have actually owned an E34 535iSE (manual), 2 years Owned an 89' 730iSE Auto, 2 years Flown a 9000 CSE 2.3SE FPT, 1 year Driven an E39 528iSE, Driven the 9-5 Se 2.3 LPT in question..

So I have "a little" experience of the cars in question. and I have learned the hard way, performance and comfort is very nice, but not so nice at when cost of maintenance is high and reliability is low.

The point I was making was that the dealer/specialist bent over backwards to make sure I was happy, and keep to keep his customers happy who regularily spend £10K on his cars.. Now, that's not so difficult to understand.... is it?

Well, actually, it is.

First off, the dealer is trying to sell you a car. This is quite a diffent situation from an annual service (hint - their profit margin on a £5k car is a lot more than on a £120 service).

Second, there are good and bad dealers for most makes - it is meaningless to make a decision on which make/model you're going to buy based on a dealer.

No, its "NOT" difficult to understand.... it's just rare. It's called "Quality Service".

NEWSFLASH: ALL dealers want to sell you one of their cars.

When you have a little more experience of buying used cars from dealers, you'll "learn" that there is a type of dealer who only wants to sell you a car, take your money and get you out the door, and there is a type of dealer who "not" only wants to sell you a car, but wants your experience of that car to be so good, that you will go back to him and buy a more expensive car from him next time.

There are good and bad dealers for everything you buy in life, experience teaches you how to discern between the good and the bad, son.

I already knew the make I was going to buy. The only decision was to find a decent dealer with "models" I was interested in. Would be a bit silly going to a Saab specialist(e.g someone who sells/maintains "ONLY" Saabs) if I wasn't sure if I wanted a Saab or BMW wouldn't it?

And you are actually quite wrong, or inexperienced, or both. Many people (men and women) may intend to buy a certain car, chance into a dealership, and find the professionalism, quality and service so refreshing and different, they choose a completely different manufacturer and model.

On reading the original post thoroughly, one "possibly" would recall,

1)I stated "After considering...", then the list of cars considered, NOT a list of dealers. 2)When referring to the 12 month warranty I began with, "And just a little aside..." not that it was a pivotal factor in the decision making process.

If the 528iSE was £750 cheaper and had 25K less on the clock, I would have bought that even with no warranty and only 75% Service History.

So can we please move on from the "dealer bashing" ? You may have had bad experiences with dealers in the past, I know I have, but there are one or two quality outfits out there.

No, I understand it, and it's a good valid point. Buying from a dealer who

*is* helpful when it comes to sorting out problems and sticking to their word regarding warranty issues, is a good idea if the price isn't extortionate (which it often can be).

In real money, yes, as a percentage, no. They generally make a higher percentage of profit on service $$ than sales.

Not necesarrily. In my area there are only 2 SAAB dealerships within normal driving distance, one of whom are out to screw you at every service opportunity. If I had to rely on that one for service I would not buy SAABs.

-Fred W

Too bad you plonked him, brother Grunff. Other than (incorrectly) assuming that you were a youngster (and who knows, maybe this fellow is 80?) he did not seem to get too heated in his argument.

I was reading along this thread, and I have to say that I agree that the relationship with the dealer and how you expect to be treated after "the deal" can be important *if* (added emphasis on *if*) you need to maintain that relationship after the sale for servicing the car.

I have a feeling that you (and I) are not cast from that mold and because we have no need to have someone else service our cars oput far less emphasis on what the dealer says or does.

For the average Joe, how they get treated by the dealer is the *most* important part of the buying process.

Case in point: My mum lives alone in a city 2 hours away, so she cannot rely on me to service her car. She must rely on a local professional mechanic. She buys only Honda cars (reliability) and buys them from a dealership that she knows and trusts to do the service work correctly, at a fair price and will not try to screw her because she is not terribly knowledgeable about things auotmotive. Yes, you might says she is "married" to that dealership. But it is a marriage of convenience and satisfactory for both parties... ;-)

Cheers,

-Fred W

It wasn't the content that offended me, it was the tone - I'm always up for a good argument; I just don't like being spoken to (repeatedly) in a condescending manner.

From experiences with friends using dealers (as you pointed out, I don't use them, so don't have any personal experience), it seems to me that they are generally very helpful until they've made their sale, then somewhat less helpful afterwards.

If it works, it works, and that's good.

Just for the fun of it, I went to see this car today and take it for a test drive.... I came away with a mixed impression...

Paperwork 10/10, Mot's, bills and new turbo from Turbo Technics in

1999...Hmmmmmm

The cosmic blue bodywork was immaculate.. the sills weren't color coded, but weren't faded or shabby.

Interior/boot was immaculate, all electrics worked. cup holder came out and flipped faultlessly. indicator am was very wobbly though. Climate control display was fine. No Harmon Kardon ICE though.. sigh..

Car started first time, quickly settled down to tick over, sounded like it had coped with the 87K since 1999 very well, but sounded slightly throaty inside... Took a look under bonnet and then question marks started to rise. under the hood, sounded like a whining coming from what "seemed to be" the cambelt area... & To the right of the engine, could also hear very noticable ticking. Don't know Saab engines (yet), but this stood out to me. Also under hood looked very clean... "steam clean" in fact. But I thought it was bad idea to steam clean Saab engines..? Anyway... Forgot to look at air filter...

"The Owner/Dealer" wasn't there, but his staff were. Was given the keys and told to go and "take car for spin". I said thank you very much, pulled car out slowly, and edged slowly onto to main road.

Handling, road hlolding was most excellent. Car felt very "young" for its age.. Once out of earshot and sight of dealership. I put my foot down. Then a very nice suprise... For "some" reason I could clearly hear the "fast&furious" turbo whistle kick in mixed with a throaty blurble of exhaust notes, followed by a suprising but welcome forward thrust.. Much more than the LPT torque I was expecting, but not as much as a 9000 CSE 2.3 FPT. It was fun, but didn't "feel" like 230+bhp of stage one.. (Which I expect would feel something like my old 215 bhp 89' 535iSE manual that shredded a jag v12 back in 96.)

I returned to the dealership with a large grin, which was wiped off my face when I saw a tacky blue "turbo" sticker thingy next to the 9-5 on the boot lid.. I didn't like the spoiler, but that was the limit. I immediately began to think what sort of person would do this to a saab, and what other "molestation" had gone on under the bonnet....

Was worth the trip, but few question marks on leaving.... Comments ?

Any doubts, walk away, so I guess you're spot on.

What happend to the older £4k one?

Waiting for finance confirmation after handing over some required paperwork. Took the R'98 for a spin on Saturday as well. Drove very smooth, felt very solid, like a low mileage quality car, and no funny noises inside, even with radio off and windows up. But just didn't seem like 170 BHP of 2.3 turbo.

I know dealer is not dodgy, Have given reg plate to insurers for insurance quote, and it came up R/98 2.3 lpt Ecopower. Saab Gilberts of Ealing, UK said maybe the "fast&furious" car was chipped, or the R'98 has turbo breather problem... but they said 2.3lpt is still supposed to be quick even at

170 bhp.

So phoned R'98 dealer, and one of the dealer's engineers said he would check the car and compare the performance with a 2001Y 9-5 2.3 LPT Airflow they have.

So still looking at 2.3 lpt 9-5's and 523/528 iSE's.

But these cars weigh like 2 tons? So 170bhp is going to be quite lacking there, no?

0-60 in 8.0s (aut 9.0s) Top Speed 137mph 40-60 in 4th 7.7 50-70 in 5th 11.0 fuel, combined cycle 29.4 mpg