Saab Complaint

Happiness all round then...

I wouldn't compare the Ford and Firestone case to your case. Ford was to blame because they deliberately told their customers to run otherwise good tires underinflated. They did this because they knew their Explorers were succeptible to rollovers so they tried to reduce the center of gravity by deflating the tires.

But then again, maybe Saab did the same. Open up your Saab's owner's manual and check if the minimum weight index (a two digit code) as well as the speed index (a one letter code) recommended in there match the ones on your Michelin tires. Also, out of curiousity, what size tires do you have and what is the recommended air pressure for that tire size for your car?

Other than that, I'm sorry for your inconvenience.

Cheers,

Pete

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ wow, that must be some terrific oil! How much is the oil filter...about 50 bucks?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ wow, that must be some terrific oil! How much is the oil filter...about 50 bucks?

milt brewster wrote: :: Good for you. I hope your luck continues. Nobody should have two :: blowouts on the freeway in six months, driving a new car. Not :: even the people in this thread who have been frankly insulting.

Hmmm.....and just how much did happen to the car, when you had the flats? Was it still controlable? I've seen both C900 and 9000 be punctured at around 130-140 km/h (85 mph). The driver had one hand up in the air and the other on top of the steeringwheel - no drama at all.....

:: No, and that's my point here. The Honda Civic sells for 60% of :: the cost of a 9-3 Saab, yet the Civic has a better safety and

Yeah right!

Cheers!

milt brewster wrote: :: Good for you. I hope your luck continues. Nobody should have two :: blowouts on the freeway in six months, driving a new car. Not :: even the people in this thread who have been frankly insulting.

Hmmm.....and just how much did happen to the car, when you had the flats? Was it still controlable? I've seen both C900 and 9000 be punctured at around 130-140 km/h (85 mph). The driver had one hand up in the air and the other on top of the steeringwheel - no drama at all.....

:: No, and that's my point here. The Honda Civic sells for 60% of :: the cost of a 9-3 Saab, yet the Civic has a better safety and

Yeah right!

Cheers!

I happen to have nice new Michelins on my 9.5, so I am listening. Which Michelins were these, the normal ones, or the Plus ones, the specifications are different.

OK, I'd like to know which tires these were, and were they front or rear?

OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them.... So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that this is on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new problem? Could it be related to a bad batch from a particular run, as in the Firestone problems?

Ok, then other than defective, why might they have failed? Do you have an idea of how many other Michelins have failed under similar circumstances? I don't know, but I might expect to see some complaints here.

Ok, perhaps it is, perhaps not... IF your experience is typical, then I'd welcome you to start a class-action suit against Michelin first, and perhaps Saab second. If not, how do you extrapolate from one experience to another? If the tires are defective, then I have the factory/dealer service record for my car, which shows no tire problems in 32000 miles. Again, I'd like to know what Michelins you had on the car, size, model number, and ratings... (although I can find the ratings by going to Michelin's site.)

Thanks

Harvey

Actually, if you can see a tread weakness, or the cord showing through in one spot, or delamination, then you probably can make a case for it. How did these tires fail?

H.

Your words in the original post do not indicate a person who is "quite composed":

1. "SECOND catastrophic freeway blowout in six months. Both quick and dangerous."

Capitalizing is a sign of shouting - not calm. Choosing the word "catastrophic" - dramatic choice of words Describing the blowouts as "quick and dangerous" - dramatic, perhaps you have the potential for a career in writing fictional novels - a competitive field, but it can be rewarding.

1. "I had to literally risk my life changing my tire on the freeway."

Did you really "literally" risk your life?

Changing a tire on the freeway does not come recommended - AAA and police advise driving slowly on the shoulder to the nearest exit - you won't damage the rim if you drive slowly and the tire is gone already.

1. "I lost an important client because of this."

If you are in sales you should have a cell phone. If the "important" client could not understand a delay because of an automotive problem, then you probably were not going to close the deal anyway, the "important" client was looking for an excuse to say no.

1. "All this is not just expensive or unacceptable. It is criminal."

Emotional words - "unacceptable", "criminal" - it is hard to say these words in a calm manner.

I did read it again - see my comment above. I bought a Saab this week after looking at Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Saab.

I have yet to call anyone a name here.

All I did, was to post a complaint about a serious problem I had with my nearly-new Saab.

Your comments below are really not very helpful. While you probably didn't intend them to be; I propose to you, that I actually asked some pretty good basic questions. People like you would be very helpful in a group like this, if you provided useful answers to questions like this in the future -- instead of the vague stuff I see below here:

Yes. Just one.

See part of my problem?

So did I.

What do you look for specifically? How do you recognize it? How do you fix what you find? On a new car, when do you decide to take your problem to a garage instead of handling the problem yourself?

What does my posting frequency have to do with the problem I described? A problem is a problem. It is valid, or it isn't. It affects other Saab owners, or it doesn't.

NOTE: I've posted here using several different accounts and read the group regularly.

Calling me names doesn't make it go away.

Calling me names also won't protect you from having the same problems I had, if you also own a Saab.

Quibble, quibble. You don't expect an answer with any detail, so I won't offer one -- but car ownership has changed over the last ten and twenty years. What we need to do; what we can do; and what we should look out for.

Some newsgroup readers are new to Saab; some of us are old hands; some of us are thinking about replacing an older car with a new Saab. If you are knowledgeable and care to help out in a newsgroup, then you already know why some of these basic questions are useful and helpful.

On the other hand, if you are just a troll-enthusiast, then you will pretty much post the kind of answers I'm seeing in this thread --- where posters have called me a moron, or arrogant, or a fool, just because they felt somehow personally insulted or threatened that I had a significant problem with my Saab that I shouldn't have had, and described it here.

****

In the meantime, I've had TWO FREEWAY BLOWOUTS on my new Saab in six months, under light use, and with better than normal care. Saab has been AWOL and my dealer has been frankly awful. Calling me names really doesn't address the problem I've reported here.

mb

This is a very defensive response. If it were in a political newsgroup, I'd say it was typical defensive Libertarian mind- reading.

I do check my car and my tires. I *do* maintain my car. I *don't* abuse my car, nor have I hit potholes or anything else on the road. It is presumptuous of you to think I don't -- and, I might add, a bit "convenient" for you to just assume I have.

*****

I should not have had TWO FREEWAY BLOWOUTS in six months driving my new Saab under normal conditions. Period.

Saab and Michelin should have handled their contact with me differently than they did -- which was to pretty much deny their own Warrantees and to charge me too much for their tardy service.

*****

A Saab is not a political party or a football team: Partisanship is irrelevant. I suggest that you take your auto purchase as seriously as I do: Things like this should not have happened to me, and they should not happen to you, either.

Not everything about Saabs are perfect. Problems occur. They should be reported in newsgroups like this and discussed intelligently. People are not "morons," nor do they "lack social skills" simply because they report those problems here.

... and based on my problems, Saab will indeed miss customers like me. American buyers are a finicky lot. GM and Ford are struggling this year because of indescretions of past years. Chrysler has now lost third place in Sales to Toyota partly because Toyota did things right and Chrysler had their own quality and customer relations issues.

Saab sales in the United States have not held up well over the last several years, partly because of build quality and customer relations issues like this. While Saab has improved their cars and their customer care recently, they still have a ways to go.

mb

Almost a good suggestion. My tires were not under inflated, though. After my first blowout (and before), I've been very, very careful to check my tires, and to have tire shops check my tires, too.

The blowouts were sudden explosive failures, just like the Firestone SUV failures were a few years ago. This didn't happen because I personally am an "arrogant prick," or a "moron," as the wise minds responding here seem to think.

The multiple troll personalities I expected, but you disappointed me, johannes.

This is a serious issue with a car and a company that you know well. I presented my issue well. I've called no one any names; you either.

Your personal namecalling directed to me here has been really unfortunate.

mb

I've never started a 'cross-brand' flamewar.

I included Toyota and Honda because these two companies seem to be building cars with better maintenance histories, and seem to be providing much better customer service than Saab is currently

-- and these are Saab's real compeditors -- not BMW or whatever.

I explained it quite clearly. Two catastrophic tire blowouts: bad Dealer service: a company that possibly knows it is supplying faulty tires on its new cars.

THIS is NOT a small problem. I see enough other discussions here about tires and wheelrims and the like, to know this is a major concern for some Saab owners already.

Criminal is a good word to use. If Saab is putting Michelin tires on its new cars, knowing that those Michelins are faulty, then they are committing a criminal act in the United States. I find it absolutely impossible to believe that I had TWO blowouts and it was just chance.

I doubt that very many drivers of these cars have EVER had two freeway blowouts within a year, driving on factory supplied (OEM) tires.

No -- but this is a newsgroup where problems should be reported and experiences (even bad ones) should be shared.

I've since been told by several tire stores not to buy Michelins, and that their OEM blowout rate is about five in a hundred in the first year, on new cars. This is very high.

In fact, my odds of two blowouts are only double the rate I found out. This means that this isn't an isolated incident.

Yes, and calmly. B&B Saab in San Jose. They were not good.

Most of my driving has been on well-maintained California freeways that I am very familiar with. ... never had a blowout before on them in decades of driving.

My Saab does NOT get rough or abusive use, and I do NOT drive on bad roads. My driving habits have not changed, and I have never had a blowout before on these same roads. Potholes, curbs and the like are really not prime suspects. I am the only driver of this car, which gets light use.

Gee that must mean you ALL are correct.

Yes. indeed.

My car is well maintained. So are the tires. I do not have an alignment problem. The second blowout was a rear tire anyway. The problem is not something simple.

I am indeed reporting this problem to this newsgroup. If you call it "complaining," then so be it. It's still a valid issue, however you choose to characterize it.

This could be a very serious issue for owners of late model Saabs. So could dealer relations and GM resolution practices, which have completely failed in my case. ALL this belongs on this newsgroup, whether you call it a minor issue or not, or conveniently dismiss me as a "complainer."

While I am trying to resolve this problem, I am completely stuck. The dealer won't deal -- says he's not responsible. For the first blowout, he charged me $275 and took two days to install the new tire. Michelin won't even talk to me on the phone. All I can do is buy yet another tire and keep on driving.

Yup.

I don't know.

I believe that the Michelin tires that came with my Saab are faulty. Two of the four tires that came with my car have had explosive sidewall blowouts on the freeway in less than ten thousand miles of light driving.

Either Michelin or Saab should replace them. I should have new, free tires.

I would also like to know if national service records would show that more than around 1000 new Saabs a year have experienced sudden sidewall blowout failures from OEM Michelin tires during freeway driving. If the number is this high, then Saab has a serious product safety problem. It should immediately replace all these tires on any Saab they've sold in the last four years or so, with less than maybe 20,000 miles on OEM Michelin tires.

While this probably sounds like a radical stand to most of you; it might very well be indicated here. For me; I'd settle for four free tires and a Dealer I can trust.

I don't know whether it's common or not. I suggest that even a one percent failure is very high for a for a catastrophic tire product failure. Fords SUV/Firestone tire problem wasn't that high. I've heard informally now, that one in twenty OEM Michelin tires on new small cars are failing before they hit 12000 miles. That's pretty bad.

*******

Don't dismiss this issue just because it is a low-percentage issue.

Most serious Manufacturer-related product problems happen rarely: Let's say one percent or less. From your perspective on Usenet, a problem can look trivial. Maybe I ought to just quit whining and take that 1:100 chance, and just enjoy my Saab like you do.

But let's look more closely at the real statistics here. Where you or I could individually take the risk if we had a 100:1 chance of beating the odds, this doesn't work from Saab's perspective.

Saab sells a lot of cars. Given their yearly sales, even one

100:1-level single serious product fault in their cars will certainly cause a thousand accidents, five hundred injuries and a hundred deaths a year, every year. Remember: That faulty equipment is installed somewhere; just perhaps not on the car *you* happened to buy. This cost is a certainty for them, and it's expensive. They can't ignore it.

And it gets worse. Automobiles are complex products. Saab might have more than one low-odds product problem. There might be a dozen... or a hundred. And Saab owners don't drive our cars for just one year: Maybe we keep them for five years.

... so these small 1:100 risks add up for us as drivers, until the risk that SOMEthing will happen to us that shouldn't have, might actually be very high.

So, Saab isn't looking at just one product problem; they might be looking at dozens that they have to manage. ... and WE might be looking at shorter odds than we think, too.

... and all of this puts a whole new light on product quality and consumer service. The most profitable way to build a complex modern product, is to design it well and build it correctly in the first place; and then to fix it quickly if something slips by, before the problem spreads.

A tech or mechanic can probably earn his/her salary for a year, just catching two or three potential accidents like this and simply fixing them. That's what Saab should be doing.

****

And all of this is beside the point.

I drive a new, well-maintained Saab with 10,000 miles on it. I have had two freeway blowouts on OEM tires in six months. This is not acceptable.

The response I got from the Dealer and from the Tire Mfgr was also not acceptable: It was like dealing with a Chrysler dealer in 1958.

mb

Hi, May I ask a question? How come did you buy the Saab then? So you can cross post your rant and drag on and on? Thanks for your time and let's move onto different thread. Tony

>

Part of your problem??? When buying something, anything, I (and most people) like to find out roughly, ballpark, how much it should cost. Your inability to do this is just part of your overall stupidity.

You look for damage to the tyre wall, inside and out. You look for damage to the tread. You look for splits in suspension bushes, and damage to balljoint rubbers and CV gaiters. You jack up each corner, grab the wheel, and check it for play. That is sufficient.

It doesn't, but it has everything to do with telling us that we should maintain an FAQ!

Yes, but your problem isn't Saab specific; it's a personality defect.

Always good behaviour that...

No, but it sure helps me vent.

True, bad luck can come to anyone.

Wibble.

Tell you what - and this is a good experiment for anyone to do - do a groups search for my name, then do a groups search for yours. Read the threads, then compare the usefulness of replies produced by "milt brewster" to those produced by "grunff".

Hi there,

Just one question you keep mentioning that something like 5 out of every 100 new Michelin tyres on small cars have problems (experiencing blowouts) where have you obtained this information from is it word of mouth or from some statistical record held by SAAB, Michelin or some other statistical data collection agency?

Many thanks, Tim.

Probably better to stop this line of inquiries. The guy now accuses me of name calling; I don't find any in my answers, so I'm getting bored with him.

He's confusing you with me - I called him a moron and refered to him as stupid. Sometimes when there's a spade standing right in front of you you can't help but call it a spade.

It makes you think: How can someone so stupid get to drive a new Saab? I must be in the wrong business or the world is not fair...