Saab Complaint

in article snipped-for-privacy@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at snipped-for-privacy@sonic.net wrote on 08/09/2003 00:42:

My apologies to all for picking on one minor point that Milt made when the thread is largely over, but I'm interested. Is this true? I nearly spat my muesli out when I read this.

In the UK, the current Saab model range finds is competitors in Lexus (I know, Toyota make these), BMW, Audi (A4, perhaps A6), Mercedes and to a lesser extent, the bigger VWs (say, Passat), perhaps the Vauxhall Omega and even (dare I say it) the new Volvo models. New Saab in the UK still holds a kind of appeal as the marque for the wanna-be-different kind of rep :)

I'm not being a car snob here, but when the car magazines are comparing new models, they pick the relevant ones from these manufacturers. Likewise, the kind of people who drive these cars are marque drivers; they are not largely family cars. I think the biggest surprise there is how well Volvo have done to turn their image around. Heck, even Skoda are looking good nowadays :)

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I think that Saab would have known about it. Your model has been in production since around 1994? It is unlikely that a company like Saab don't know how to design standard sized wheels and tires. The cars are tested to destruction on harsh Swedish forest roads.

[...]

So how fast did the tires loose pressure? If the 2 psi were lost in less than one or two weeks, then you have a slow puncture. The fact that you have had two blowouts could be because you drive in the same area. In particular if you drive in areas where building or engineering work is going on, then it is easy to pick up small metal objects in your tires. This has happened to me in the past.

Don't know about the US but in NL, SAAB has a 0,87 % market share = (jan-july 2003), way below Toyota (5,32 %) but slightly higher than = Honda (0,71 %), see

------------------------------------------- MH '72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96

[Newsgroups: edited]

Johannes isn't the whining idiot who insists on adding a.a.t to the Newsgroups: line, so FFS stop reposting him and adding to the noise.

If you're really offended by the crossposts just killfile the thread, it's a SAAB owner's whinge so just ignore it.

Goran Larsson wrote: :: Does it? I've heard that they do not award five stars to any car :: that does not have an obnoxious safety belt warning system.

Yes it does. Go look at the actual points given. You have to succeed 30 points to get 5 stars. The Laguna gets 33. The beltwarning is only awarding

2 points on any car.

Cheers!

In article , snipped-for-privacy@sizefitter.com spouted forth into alt.autos.saab...

Or a bad rim seal, usually caused by corrosion on the rim, or by some other contamination at the sealent.

I wonder if the rim had been properly machined when made, or before the first replacment tyre was fitted, or whether a faulty valve had been fitted (didn you get a replacement valve when the first blowout was fixed).

Where the balance weights fitted to the tyre stickon or wire clipons? All of this could actually have an impact into what caused the defaltion.

I make a practice of checking the pressure of older tyres weekly, and brand new tyres monthly (after first initial week or two when I check them weekly to make sure I'm not getting a leak).

I know this isn't your probs J, just posting some thoughts on it.

I see that reading what the problem turned out to be, it is a serious safety issue, whether it is the blowouts, the minimal deflation needed, or even the fairly rapid pressure leak. But Milt, it isn't necessarily a cut and dried Saab fault, or Michelin Fault.

It may be a 3rd party fitter fault. It may be a Saab fault that couldn't be picked up at the factory, because the tyre held air while it was waiting to be shipped/delivered and was within pressure tolerance. It may be that it was the above, the fitted that replaced the first blow out didn't spot it properly either.

Many things should be checked and discounted before shouting "Saab are Criminal". but I agree, like any manufacturer, mistakes can happen.

In article , snipped-for-privacy@sonic.net spouted forth into alt.autos.saab...

See there we have your problem. Not necessarily that Saab are negligent, or criminal, or ripping you of, but that B&B Saab, a dealer is. You might want to make Saab US or even the Chairman of GM aware of this, if you really feel that is the case.

It is? He had a chance to find out how much they were going to charge, yet he apparently didn't. I don't know how much Michelin tires cost, but I bet it's more than $75. The value _to him_, vs. the value to the rest of the free market, may be two different things. Personally, I go to a tire guy for tires, rather than the dealer...since the dealer buys from my tire guy and all...

I thought so too, but then found that the usual tire guy was more expensive than the dealer. The tire guy may have loss leaders, but when you ask for a specific tire, the price magically goes up. The dealer has to sell his stuff and has offers from time to time. That was the way I got my set of 16" Aero wheels plus 205/55/16 Gislaved tires. Anyway, I look forward to the coming series in Car Mechanics where they will also look at independents in the UK.

I've got a really good relationship with my "tire guy"; he's a Saab person from way back, etc.

I also wonder - the $275 the complainer mentions - does that include the alignment check he claims he had done, or just mounting/balancing the tire? (not that I really care, I'm just pointing out an inconsistancy in the story)

That's OK. However, I still think it is unlikely that it is a manufacturing fault since wheels and tyres undergo inspection as part of the process. I've never come across anything like that. I've had plenty of premature replacements of tyres due to suspicious bulges, possibly caused by some immature driving over the kerbs, but now I'm older and more careful. If not noticed, then such tyre problems are usually picked up by the british annual MOT test.

In article , snipped-for-privacy@sonic.net spouted forth into alt.autos.saab...

errrrrm, nope, I see no typo. He wasn't being defensive, he was explaining that he has seen the same problem, but not for the same reason. He never mentioned that his 500k miles were by Saab, they could have been by Bicycle or Scooter for all it mattered. He just hasn't had a puncture in 500k miles of travelling in the UK.

The current value to the retail customer seems to be upwards of 150 USD for that tire, going by the recommendations of what Michelin says is OEM for that car.

Assuming that the dealer charged him 200 USD for the tire (probably not unreasonable for the dealer to do, since dealers are not, by definition, price competitive), then there's the valve stem, mounting, balancing and that's without a front end alignment. Front end alignment is worth at least 50 USD itself. Then we figure in California tax, which is probably at least 7 to 10%.

I can see the dollars mount up.

As for the two days, well.. the dealer might have been busy, it might have been over a weekend (I don't remember that part), or it might have been just plain "we get to it when we get to it...."

Harvey

Laura, while these are reasonable and intelligent suggestions, it is also unrealistic for you to expect every auto buyer to conduct this kind of detailed study before they make their purchase choice. It almost makes me wonder if you yourself just wanted to vent a little at me... maybe let yourself off the hook for choices you have made in your own past.

If that's what you're doing, that's OK. I can deal with it.

I'll point out to you now, that in general, USA auto buyers simply don't have enough information available to them to make the kind of detailed, exquisitely informed buying decisions that your response here implies they can. Without good product quality information, we simply must rely to a large part on the manufacturer and the dealer to "warrant" that the car we have just purchased is safely designed, built and equipped. I think you know what I'm getting at.

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I didn't go to NHTSA or the tire rack two years ago because I didn't know I would need to. I thought Saab's choice of Michelins as OEM equipment were probably a good choice for my 9-3. I was more concerned about my brakes, the turbo, the transmission, and the electronics. This is probably a usual and normal concern for most Saab buyers. While my concerns might not meet your precise standards, neither was I a negligent or careless buyer. I took more than a year to pick out my Saab: in fact, it might have been two years.

When I originally posted my "complaint" here, I was angry but I was contained. It was not an abusive rant. In any case, I didn't address my post to anyone in this group; where they could logically assume I was attacking them personally. Go back and read that original post.

I didn't realize it was a big-deal safety issue at that point. I hadn't collected information yet.

Now I have a little more data from other people, and I do indeed believe that Michelin tires on 2001 Saab 9-3s are a safety issue worth reporting. Tires matter: Particularly on smaller cars that are designed to run on low-profile tires that can fail so suddenly under normal use and care. I now believe that at the very least, Saab made an unconsciably poor OEM tire choice for their 2001 9-3s.

mb

I don't think I am misusing the word "criminal" at all. I've explained exactly what I meant by the term and you have read my explanation.

In fact, at this point I think you are inflating this nit so you can rationalize your own frustration at being unable to address the real issues my posts are raising. You don't want to read that Saabs have problems.

******

The fact remains that I had two blowouts in six months (less than

10,000 miles) on Saab's OEM-supplied Michelin tires, with good care and light driving use. This performance is unacceptably poor by any standard or measure.

The fact also remains that you don't know squat about American Communications Law, the concept of "fair comment," or what passes for Freedom of Speech in the US. Perhaps you should confine your responses to Saab's very poor OEM choice for tires in the future.

No one asked you to read my posts, or anyone elses. If you can't stand to read a reasonable complaint once in a while, then maybe YOU're the whiner here; and not me.

As far as litigation goes; .... well, your nieve comment just shows how very little you know about product liability law as it is practiced in the United States. I have no plans here.

Here's the deal: I had two blowouts on low mileage OEM tires that should NEVER have blown out. It isn't just bad luck: It's a product safety issue. ... Not only for me, but potentially for any other driver of a late model Saab that might encounter the same conditions I did.

This makes my post a good subject for this newsgroup.

Because it involves low profile OEM tires on a smaller sedan; it also makes my experience a good one to share on several other auto newsgroups as well.

The discussion here ought not to be about whether I personally am a whiner, a moron, an "arrogant prick," a poor sport, or am "slandering" Michelin.

The discussion should be about Saabs; other small cars that are equipped with low profile tires; good and bad tire choices; tire care; and links to where all of us can conduct research into these issues and more.

mb

This is very helpful information for anyone reading an auto newsgroup. I also liked your note in another post, on

There are probably four or five or six other good, authoritative sites like this posting research on car models, that everyone should visit before buying a car. Newsgroups like this are good places to survey knowledgeable people, and collect their collective opinions on sites like this, in one place. Very few newsgroups do it, though.

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As an aside, most US Government agencies these days are authoritative, but not necessarily accurate. Often careless in their research, they are usually woefully behind in the data and analyses they post. This is true for NHTSA, and true for any Govt agency as well.

A good survey of 20 experienced foreign car mechanics in any large city would probably provide better data on what to look out for, what goes wrong, what needs repairs, and what cars are most reliable, and which cars not to buy. The problem is, that most of us don't know more than a few mechanics, and this is too small a sample.

mb

I would have agreed with you about the Saab until last week or so. It still ought to be a great car to drive on a trip.

I am sorry about your tire experiences in your Mark VIII. I'll bet that tires became very important to you after your first problem or two. Saabs are not the only cars with tire problems. Some Manufacturers (like Ford?) might very well be worse.

I don't think that we should ignore tire problems just because they are isolated "bad luck" occurances.

I also don't think we should ignore tire problems because "everybody has problems with tires all the time."

In both cases, the tire failure creates a safety problem, whether the failure is the fault of the owner, caused by road conditions, or was caused by the Manufacturer who was trying to save a dollar per tire when they sold the car.

mb

Have you reported your problem to the NHTSA? Are you planning to?

And you still haven't.

You're moderating your point from "criminal" to "poor choice" now? Are you planning on contacting the NHTSA and filing a complaint, or do you just want to make noise?

So, what did Michelin customer service say when you called them. What are you running for tire pressure.

It was the Ford/Firestone (not bridgestone) problem. Ford put firestones on there explorers, and when they rode to stiff, they lowered the tire pressure. Running tires underinflated blows tires, its as simple as that.