Saab Complaint

Did you endanger your life by popping the bonnet and investigating the cause of the failure *on the motorway*?

Fundamentally I agree with you but (from the UK perspective) there are two caveats. One is that there's an overlap between the market where Saab operates and the Mondeo etc market. Way back when I worked for a company which offered some staff cars as a perk, quite a lot of people were on a deal where they could have either a Sierra, Cavalier. or equivalent with lots of toys, or an absolute basic BMW, Audi, or Saab (I said it was way back). I remember one colleague having a BMW

3-series with no radio and no power steering. But these are different ways of spending the same money and the likes of Audi are the closest competitors.

The other caveat is that the newest Honda Accord at least is being pitched at something a little further up the market than the average family car: if there's one close competitor it's the Passat which you've mentioned as one of the 'lesser extent' competitors. Americans should note that the Accords built and sold on this side of the Atlantic are completely different from the ones they get in the US.

The Japanese manufacturers over here do have a good reputation for reliability. But they're not perfect: trawl around the Internet and you'll find tales of poor customer service about every car manufacturer - and for that matter about every bank and every airline and probably every manufacturer of washing machines. And (again in the UK) Japanese makes have a reputation for parts being expensive, even for British-made cars. One of the original poster's gripes about Saab was parts prices, and I really doubt whether a British counterpart would find parts for an Accord or a Toyota Avensis significantly cheaper than those for a Saab.

Martin

I have absolutely no idea what you're "getting" at. Auto buyers have plenty of information available if they use it. I do. My cars have all been excellent choices for what I needed at the time. They were all well-researched and carefully bought and I have been extremely pleased with them. The same is true when I purchase tires, computers, TVs, or anything else. It's my money. I make sure I get what I paid for. If I have problems after that, I make sure the manufacturer makes good on the warranty. You seem to prefer whining and moaning to actually doing something about a problem.

snipped-for-privacy@madmousergraphics.com

design, print design, photography

Go back and read my post. The part about putting 50,000 miles on a car in a year. Tires were very important to me before I bought them. That's why I bought good tires with the heat rating, speed rating and tread pattern I needed. They served me well, considering the mileage I was putting on them in the heat of the summer and that I was running them on Interstates all day and then "off roading" at dirt race tracks over gravel, rocks, metal, sheet metal and who knows what every night.

snipped-for-privacy@madmousergraphics.com

design, print design, photography

This is a good general comment. In both cases, I was driving on new, well-maintained freeways going less than 65 MPH and had not hit anything on the road. I was on two different freeways. The blowouts were not at the same position -- it was the Left front; and the right rear tires that blew. In both cases, I had recently checked the tires and found them inflated and in good shape.

While it is always possible to have "bad luck" with metal objects and the like; the fact is that I don't get blowouts on other cars I drive in the same way and on the same roads, and over many years.

This is hard for an average driver to check. I have no idea what to look for. Since the car has been serviced since I bought it, I assume that it was likely checked during the servicing.

Again, possible; but how does an average driver check something like this? What do you look for? How many new car owners really want to dismount the tires on their car to inspect the rims on a new, unfamiliar car?

This is what I used to do. Now I check the car every time I get into it.

Thanks. I pretty much agree with everything you've said here, including your comments supporting Saab and Michelin. My earlier comments assume that I have the right to bring this up as a safety problem, as defined in the US, and that Saab could have consciously made an OEM tire choice knowing tires would fail in some low percentage of cases, the way Ford did. This is simply not an unreasonable possibility to bring up -- but I agree with you, that it isn't necessarily true.

I don't mind considering myself as a cause (and I have), but I believe that I have in fact taken good care of the car, and have not encountered road conditions that would have caused these tire failures. This car gets light use.

Whatever the cause; it is NOT OK to have multiple tire blowouts during normal use and care, for a new car. I am seeing two general arguments in responses to me:

*) I am the only one who has ever experienced a blowout in a new Saab, so it must just be "bad luck" on my part. *) Everybody gets lots of blowouts all the time, so I am a bad sport to complain about it.

I don't have much respect for either arguement. Regardless; in both cases, my experience remains a serious safety issue that involves Saab and Michelin, as well as my own driving habits and road conditions.

At the very least, Saab should upgrade their OEM tire quality to something that withstands normal use much better than these Michelins have for me.

mb

Agreed - it's not like the geezer's tyres popped because they were on a Saab, and its not because they're a crap tyre - Michelins are among the better tyres of the market.

Stop complaining, freak accident.

Nick.

That concludes nothing. Several years have elapsed between the punctures that I've experienced. A possible scenario in your case could be a weakness in the sidewall of a tire cased by driving over a kerb. The blowout must have had a cause! Any visible damage at all to a tire wall automatically renders the tire defective and repairs must not be attempted. Nevertheless you can drive around with a bulge or tear for weeks or months and nothing happens. The damage could be on the inside wall hidden from view from the outside. The blowout need not be connected with a recent event of damage, but damage nevertheless at some earlier time.

Too right I did, I made a point of standing to the nearside of the vehicle when tightening up the screw such that if the vehicle was struck, hopefully it might have been pushed past me and not take me with it. All hope of course! :)

David.

I read your post. I chose to post a polite response.

Tires are important to me, too. It is inappropriate for you and others here to make sweeping assuptions about my attitude toward car care, OR my personal character, just because you might find the experience I reported with my Saab to be less than a completely positive rave.

I certainly disagree with you on one item: I definitely do NOT believe that US auto buyers have nearly enough information available to them, to make truely informed decisions about the cars they buy.

While I am sorry about the direction this thread has taken, I personally can handle the cliquish personal abuse in this thread just fine. What I see here, is that there are a lot of folks posting to alt.autos.saab who aren't nearly as knowledgeable about Saabs, or as mature personally, as they would like to think. I regret that. I note that many of them are not representing Saab very well at all to potential Saab buyers who might visit here from time to time.

The fact remains that Saab equipped my new car with tires that have failed, catastrophically, twice in five thousand miles, with much better than "normal" care, and under good road conditions.

Tires are a safety issue. They should be designed to not blow out very often, and to handle failure in a reasonable way when they do.

And the fact also remains, that I am sorry you had five blowouts.

and why I fully expect an auto manufacturer like Saab to equip their new cars with tires suitable for the uses to which their owners will put their new cars.

mb

Stop quibbling, David. You aren't good at it.

I think you want to make this personal because you know I'm right.

I explained earlier what I meant by "criminal." Don't be such a child: It's boring. Honor my posts.

***

Under US Law, a company that fails to consider a product safety issue that it knows will put product users at risk of injury has committed a Criminal act. The question here isn't just what Saab knew; it's also what Saab has a legal duty to know. I am using the term appropriately.

mb

I believe you do, Laura. I believe you do.

mb

You just make Saab look bad when you speak up in their behalf with silliness like this.

To get down to cases; I did exactly as you suggested, in another post, several days ago. I'll bet you saw it.

Saab wheelrims are designed in a way, that they hold the treadbelt of a tire when it deflates -- and not even by very much. This allows the wheel rim edges to very quickly cut the sidewalls loose from the tread belt. This escalates a minor tire problem with a slow leak, to a catastrophic blowout. It happens in around ten seconds in normal freeway driving.

I didn't make this up. I do indeed have more than one "expert" now, who will attest that this is exactly what happened.

Happy motoring.

***********

I was not looking for a personal fight when I originally posted here. I had had a real problem; wanted to report it. I was looking for a little technical input. I was surprised to see the replies from you and others get very personal very fast. I had expected to see a lot more knowledge here and a lot less namecalling.

I haven't seen much in the way of technical help here, but I believe I've made my point about Saab and their OEM tires -- especially when I see replies like this.

I am not a troll; nor am I a "whiner." While I am getting tired of the adolescence I see here; I can handle it just fine -- even from you.

After several replies like this from you, I'll indulge myself and tell you that I am actually sorry for you and some of the other "enthusiasts" posting here. You may go away now.

mb

So according to your own explanation milt, what you mean by "criminal" is "criminal"! Hence Dave was justified in asking if you are planning on contacting the NHTSA and filing a complaint.

Milt doesn't answer this.

Milt doesn't answer _this_, either.

Milt. Are you going to report this to someone who is in charge of statistics on this sort of thing (who, incidentally, understands statisics a lot better than you have shown yourself to), or are you just going to continue to whine about it?

You're right that you had two blowouts. You're not right that it's criminal, or that it's typical.

Start using some logic and I'll consider it.

Go take it up with the feds, or the cops, or someone who can do something about it then, Milt. If it's a criminal thing, then think of the countless lives you may save by doing so. Gosh that would be oh so honorable. Then again, they're likely to tell you you just had bad luck, which of course you wouldn't want to hear (again), but I guess that's a risk you'll have to take in your effort to save us from your tire problems.

making a poor choice is not the same as accusing them of criminal acts!

Great and I would expect that until Saab have gone to court with you and had the case of Brewster vs. Saab tested in law and found against them then they haven't committed a criminal act.

Go to court, come back and post the outcome.

Until then, for the sake of the world as we know it...

SHUT THE FUCK UP!!

Please.

Thanks

David.

I happened to mention this information to the local Saab technician, who came up with the following information.

1) Blowouts do happen. One frequent cause is that people with low profile tires do not properly inflate them. This causes sidewall bulge and excess wear on the rim, which leads to blowouts. 2) The contract is between you and the tire company. Saab is under no absolute obligation to mess with the contract you have with the tire company. Your first line of opportunity is to talk to Michelin, that's who the guarantee is with. As to whether Michelins are somehow defective, any tire in the situation in #1 above will fail. 3) Based on what the technician said, I do not recommend that you use Pirellis. They seem to have significant sidewall bubbles....

Please note that point #3 is only anecdotal, and I have no particular kind of documentation to support it.

if you mean "ordinary use"..... yes, however, if you mean "any use", that's not workable.

Harvey

[snip]

I look at this newsgroup no more often than once every few weeks, the reason being that I do not own a SAAB. My brother used to own a 1986

9000 on which I did a little work.

As for the tires, you can check on recalls or file a complaint by going to this website:

He's already been given the link to the nhtsa but seems reluctant to do anything with it.

What is the alternative design you suggest? For you to say this design is not the best one in a court of law, you must offer an alternative...