Saab Complaint

um, i believe a product safety issue would be a civil wrong, aka a tort, and not a criminal act as you state. Good luck finding an ambulance chaser to go after saab for a "criminal act".

Reply to
Chris O'Malley
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um, i believe a product safety issue would be a civil wrong, aka a tort, and not a criminal act as you state. Good luck finding an ambulance chaser to go after saab for a "criminal act".

Reply to
Chris O'Malley

What's the male equivalent of a yenta called? Milty baby, that's you.

Duane

Reply to
DUANE DOSTIE

More likely,Saab is not winning sales battles in the U.S. because it has yet to manufacture a bloated,tacky,gas guzzling houseboat/S.U.V.A thirsty monstrosity that rolls when a flea farts in it's general direction.I trust my Saab with my life.I've had three blowouts here,pulling to the roadside was no more difficult than pulling into my driveway under normal circumstances.I blamed Saab for my tires/rims no more than I'd blame my proctologist for my migraines.

I had an Accord who's engine fried after 40,000 miles of meticulous care.Incidentally,many of the fittings fell off 10-20,000 miles previously.I've got 90,000 miles on my Saab with no major repairs other than routine maintenance.However,the power antenna (catastrophically)died;another class action lawsuit perhaps? ;-)

Knowing some Americans,sales(or ostentation) mean more than quality anyway.Also,in some cases,winging is an understatement.Some people,like many in this NG,know better.

cheers

Reply to
B_Windsor

In what way does the rims of Saab wheels differ from rims on other manufacturers wheels? The relevant part of the rim, where the tyre/tire meets the rim, must have a certain form to fit standard tyres/tires and I can't see anything exceptionally different with the Saab version.

What is so special about Saab wheelrims that you consider it criminal to put them on cars?

Reply to
Goran Larsson

I bet there's an ISO or similar standard profile for it, even. All things that the NHTSA or NTSB or whomever he won't check with would tell him.

Ssssh, he's ranting.

I think this is where he repeats his "Look, I had two blowouts in

5000 miles" thing, right?
Reply to
Dave Hinz

in article bjt6kn$n96vo$ snipped-for-privacy@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de, Dave Hinz at snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote on 12/09/2003 20:26:

What? I this still going on?

This thread has generated so much traffic about so little content. We've all replied and said our piece. We've all replied and said very little. Many of us have replied to a peace-making thread about which tyres we prefer to run.

In fact, so many of us are just dying to say, "So what, Milt? Get some new tyres.". Many more of us are dying to say, "So what? Saab don't build 'em like they used to and we who drive the old ones don't really care.".

There - it's out. Can we drop it now?

Fellow Saabers, we're here because we have a common interest in our Saab motors. Let us not forget that. Motors ... Not tyres. Remember, new Saabs are just old Saabs that have not had enough time on the track yet - if their tyres blow, well big deal :)

Milt, in all seriousness, I really do hope you get some satisfaction from your crusade.

Reply to
Paul Halliday

Thanks for the link. I've been there. It's a useful site -- not quite as complete as you think, but certainly a very important place to visit when checking out tires.

Don't be an ass, David.

It's childish of you after fifteen posts back and forth, for you to wilfully assume I haven't; when I obviously have.

mb

Reply to
milt brewster

Absolutely true. The problem he sidestepped, is that the tires that Saab provides as OEM equipment are designed so they will lose pressure in normal use a LOT faster than they should.

While we could toss around how 'negligent' I am (and others here in this thread have), the real issue here is whether I should be able to drive my car more than one hour at 65 MPH and NOT have to stop at a garage to inflate my four tires. I maintain that I should.

Your guys should also affirm that under normal conditions, a slow leak on Saab Michelins will turn into a blowout in a matter of just a few seconds. I maintain that this is inherently unsafe behavior and that Saab had a responsibility to design their car and provide tires that do NOT behave this way.

Finally; while blowouts "happen," other cars simply don't do what my Saab did. For example, I would be amazed if late model Honda or Toyota cars using substantially the same equipment behaved in this way.

While the NTHA and other sources do provide some data on problems like this; their data is late and faulty as well. They are not really an "authority," they are just a good information source.

In the end, we buyers have to base our decisions on anecdotal comparasons of experience like this, and take the Manufacturer's word for it (their Warrantee), that they have designed and built a product that is safe to operate under normal conditions and will make good on any product failure we experience under those condiditions. Saab didn't live up to their Warrantee.

"Ordinary use" is a precise term that the US Auto industry has to define and support under the product Warrantees it extends to owners. It means substantially what you think it means and doesn't mean what you suggest it should not mean.

You know what, Harvey? This is exactly what several other people have told me now, and it is useful to me even though I don't find it to be entirely good news for me.

While my tire contract is indeed between me and the tire company; it does involve the Manufacturer if the tires came with the car as original equipment. This really is a Legal issue; not a mechanical issue. Still, your guy was right: I have to start with the Michelin folks.

... but I get to note that the Saab folks were less than no help at all, when they should have been.

****

I put two dunlop sports on the Saab because that was all I could find that fit, after phoning around a dozen tire dealers. These dunlops have what looks like stronger sidewalls to me, and they run significantly cooler than the Michelins do. I am continuing to look for a better tire choice for this car.

mb

Reply to
milt brewster

Yes we can.

The thread continued longer than it should have, because a few frequent posters in alt.autos.saab decided that they could defend Saab better if they insulted me personally, than if they actually addressed the problem I described.

They expected that a few well-chosen names would indeed drive me off, and that they could then just forget about me as a troll. If I had left at that point, it would have looked like I wasn't serious about the problem I reported.

... so I stayed in order to establish that I was serious. They raised some foolish basic assumptions that were easy for me to answer. All this let me re-establish that I really WAS serious and knew something about what I was talking about.

In the process of their extending this thread, Saab and Michelin got a lot more bad Usenet press than they would have otherwise. You can thank the frequent posters here: I would have gone away a week ago otherwise.

****

... so what are they all doing now?

They are busy assuring each other that they are bored, and bailing out as fast as they can, hurling a few last-chance four letter-word names in my direction as they go. This is a very common tactic for 'true believers' in a newsgroup who have failed to handle a criticism in a thoughtful and positive way.

Usenet newsgroups work like this sometimes. Frequent posters in a newsgroup form informal cliques. They don't like "downer" posts from people they dont' know. They think all they have to do to take care of a problem, is to personally disparage the newbie who raised it. They think they have the right to pile on.

All this might work sometimes and with some people; but it doesn't work with me. I stick around for a while. In a perverse, left-handed way, maybe I *have* in fact trolled them after all.

****

Two blowouts on new OEM tires in 5000 miles of light use.

Saab needs to tighten up its act.

Michelin needs to design and manufacture better tires.

mb

Reply to
milt brewster

Of course you should be able to do this. I inflate my tires once a months. I should ideally do this once a week, but then they wouldn't need filling. This also happened when I had Michelin Pilots on My Saab 9000. I've never heard any other stories that Saab owners need to fill tires as frequently as you have to.

Again and again and again: Why don't you report this serious criminal deficiency to the appropriate authorities??? [...]

See my comment above.

Why do you always post so long replies, then never give us the information we ask for? There is obviously a huge difference between us in the interpretation of your events. People in this group generally wants to be helpful and have tried hundreds of times in this thread to help you with your problem. People are rather puzzled on you insistence of blaming Saab for everything that has happened, yet you don't take the actions expected in such circumstances. Just moaning and winging. I suspect of you that you are trying to stir up a kind of Ford Explorer type of calamity because this is something you have seen or heard about. I can't really believe that you're a serious person.

Reply to
Johannes H Andersen

Back up that claim with facts, Milt, or retract it and go away.

Whoever is telling you that is mistaken. Unless you can show the world some way that Saab's rim geometry is non-standard, this entire line of thought is yet another one of your wild goose chases.

Before you can go anywhere with that, you have to explain how, say, Ronel wheels shipped with a Saab, are of a different bead profile than those same wheels shipped with every other car.

Fine, then sell your Saab.

Reply to
Dave Hinz

Lie in peace, Milt, you're worthy of no further of my time. Yes, of course, now you have to post the condescending response to this; you can't help it, I understand. of course, I won't see it, but that's OK.

Reply to
Dave Hinz

And in a usenet discussion, the last post is always the correct answer. It always shows how misguided the previous poster is and clears up any stupid misunderstandings with superior eloquence. Any doubters just have to read the last post to find the truth of the matter. Until next post...

Reply to
Johannes H Andersen

Actually, I'm not sure that he sidestepped it. He specifically mentioned low profile tires. My 9.5 uses 215 R60 16's IIRC, and these do not qualify as low profile, I rather suspect he was thinking of the people with the 17 inch wheels. When he held his hand up to show the low profile tire, it was half the distance of the tread to wheel rim of my tires.

I'd agree. However, that statement is a bit exaggerated. I'd be curious to see just how fast you lose pressure, and you might want to do a 15 minute check/drive/check to make sure. However, I do caution you that a low volume tire does not hold much air, and measuring the pressure on the tire WILL cost you some tire pressure.

If this is going to be a major issue, is there a tire pressure monitor that you can retrofit?

I think that he did, but not to mention the slow leak... I think that this difficulty (susceptibility to sidewall damage) is inherent in any low profile tire (also possible wheel damage when hitting something large, since the tire can deform only so much).

The question here is rapidly becoming one of "do Michelin tires on Saab rims have a slow leak"?

Given that you have a slow leak, and are not in a position to catch it, the rest becomes inevitable.

Well, considering the wheel rim design that I suspect is on all these cars, I'm not sure that it wouldn't happen. I had a Ford '89 probe that had a slow leak in the rear tire. I"d come out and find it flat after a week or three... Now looking at how that tire is designed, I'd say that the wheel rims will try to cut through the tire tread if deflated. I'm not convinced that the incision problem you have is unique to Saab.

You might try

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for more anecdotal evidence, and some decent test data. I was impressed. There seems to be some decent tires for (at least) my model year at significantly less dollars than the Michelins... how good they are is another matter.

You're lumping two different manufacturers under the same warrantee. This probably will not work. Every new car I've bought has a separate tire warrantee, and with the tire manufacturer only.

Under these conditions, you should examine the exclusions carefully. I think that "improper inflation" is not a "normal use" situation.

You might want to consider the "run flat" variety of tires....

Note also (and how many miles do you have on your car now?) that two of the other tires have not failed, nor has the 300 mile replacement failed.

Lots of things we hear are useful, but certainly what we don't want to hear. Foglamp damage, for instance.

They are the ones. You may or may not have an action against Saab IF and only IF Saab has a wheel rim design sufficiently flawed that it causes these tires to fail... but that's my opinion.

Again, I'd suggest tire rack. They seem like a good idea.

Harvey

Reply to
Harvey White

I'm beginning to regret killfiling him - that's a real gem. So Saab tyres *are designed to* deflate in use. ROTFL...

Reply to
Grunff

I don't supose you use a pressure washer on your car do you? The instructions with mine clearly state that if you get within 12" of tyres when using the high pressure jet, it makes your tyres porous. I wonder if...?

Reply to
Adrian England

They're called the ACURA TSX in the States. Base price of $27,000.00 USD.

Reply to
J. Harris

Has the length of this thread broken any records?

I have just joined the Saab newsgroup and have been instantly amazed at how helpful, funny, very technical (sometimes) and downright rude or frank (depending on your stance/paranoia) the postings have been. This thread just seems to have gone on and on and on.

Anyway it is good to be part of the Saab owners' family and like any family there is the odd black sheep (or the amiable rogue).

Reply to
Pete Brown

Welcome to the NG brother Pete.. Love them, hate them - SAAB's make for conversation.. :) ..

It's a generally polite bunch as a rule - brother Dave acts as a kind of unofficial group whip to keep the spammers and assorted weasels in check - although sometimes a little more strongly than I would - that's why he's the unofficial club whip..

Brother Grunff has the final say if a final say is available on any given technical aspect - I tend to drone on and on - but I like to think it's usually better motoring reading reading than the sunday fishwrap. I fear Dave lets me ride for the free tunes and timely virus/worm alerts though.. :/ ..

Brother Göran and brother Tom are our 9-5/NG experts, sister Laura is I think a bit of a 'Utility Classic' type like myself, good tips for those stylish extra miles, brother Paul has actually done the official factory tour and brother Johannes may end up being our official historian whereas brother Carl - the SAAB owner formally known as Skodapilot - is our rally man (and there are loose rumours that he may do something very fast and sandy shortly)..

There are the Baker Street irregulars Paul, Simon, David, MH and assorted others I should mention but have to go read the kids bedtime stories.

However, Milt the blowhard seems to have turned up out of nowhere and I suspect he may have been here trying to raise Cain before under another handle. Maybe not - didn't even bother to check - apparently he owns a SAAB and that's usually good enough to get you in the door - what you do once you're here is what makes the rep..

Anyway - AAS is very much a kind of refuge from the hateraid most of my other NG's have fallen victim to and as such - despite this stupid thread - we mostly have avoided the spam by not replying to it and letting brother Dave take care of the pleasantries. Please keep this in mind and killfile as appropriate..

Again welcome..

Reply to
Dexter J

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