So, would you say Saabs are reliable?

Hmmm...this is a good basic question. It narrows down what you value more in a car. However, it leads to the more relevant question...how long do you expect to drive a vehicle? If you don't expect to drive a car for more than say 50k miles (common these days), then long term reliability is probably not so important (unless of course you're buying a _really_ used car..say one w/125k miles+ on the odometer). But if you dont expect to log more than

50k miles, then those little nagging issues become all the more relevant (as those are more likely to be the issues the driver faces everyday).

Getting back to the original post, I get the impression that the guy won't be logging anywhere near 200k miles on the car. In which case, his concerns over the nagging little day-to-day issues are warranted.

As for me, I bought a new 9-3 three months ago. It has been in the shop four times for major defects (brakes, struts, various rattling noises, radio problems, esp issues, broken seat, broken undercarriage cabling, and about a half dozen other minor but annoying issues). While I love the car, these little issues are _very_ annoying and detract from the overall experience with the car. I'm guessing/hoping my experience is not typical. But from what I've read, the initial quality reports on the new 9-3 series is not favorable...that is, achieving just barely above average results.

- tex

Reply to
Tex
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I disagree - design has to do a lot with reliability. As an engineer, I know that certain design solutions will be unreliable no matter what you do in manufacturing.

-Dima

Reply to
Dima

While true perhaps on some occasions, most new cars (including Saabs) have a great deal of much more reliable assemblers on the line today...robots. Additionally, most components in new Saabs were designed to only fit together in one way, minimizing the possibility of assembly line quality variance problems.

Most of the rattles and squeaks in the new 9-3 are related to engineering design flaws. This is pretty well documented by owners on saabcentral.com. That is, minor/cheap engineering changes to the car could have prevented a lot of the rattles/noises.

- tex

Reply to
Tex

in article snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com, Tex at snipped-for-privacy@aspam101.org wrote on 18/05/2005 00:08:

Absolutely! Individual experience of a particular manufacturer can vary from one extreme to the other and be of no use to a potential buyer. A group does have the benefit of a broader range of experiences.

I've had three SAABs now and I will say that none of them have ever not fired up first time, every thing, come hot summers, freezing winters or muggy days in between. That's reliability!

Paul

1989 900 Turbo S
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Reply to
Paul Halliday

Yes, but design is a basic requirement. Cars like Ford and Fiat are good designs on paper. I've owned both in the past, but the problems was always something that "should work", but failed due to poor quality control.

Reply to
Johannes

Interesting (and regretful).

Would you mind elaborating on the symptoms? Is this an idle/stall/misfire problem? Are they now planning to investigate the fuel delivery system?

The reason I ask is that my 9-5 is also currently at the Saab dealer. There are two

20 year master techs at work on it. It has rough idle/stall problems that disappear when the triconic is reset, and then gradually resurface until the CE light comes on again. They suspected raw fuel in the evap cannister, but once removed, it was dry. They have done diag tests to their wits end. They've said they're 'baffled'. That's never a good state for a 20 yr tech to be in.

Now they suspect the trionic itself is having problems. Fortunately they have a borrowed working module they can throw in. We'll find out today how she does.

Personally, I think the fuel pump is misbehaving.

Reply to
Jef Gearhart

Right. Also, when you buy an econo-crapbox, you _expect_ little things to be wrong with it, and tolerate that. Or, they're design and servicability problems that you might not know or care about. That sliding wedge abomination in Ford front disk brake caliper assemblies, for instance...mild steel, won't slide when it gets rusty. Now, when would a mild steel part, on a brake assembly get rusty? Oh yeah, any time after the day it's built. Gosh... But, people don't look at that until it's time to (have someone) do the brakes.

The superficial problems (rattles, squeaks) are probably present on pretty much any production model. The fundamental design decisions are what differentiate a good car, from a bad car.

Reply to
Dave Hinz

Design is _what_ to make. Engineering is _how to_ make it. It's the engineering that makes the most difference.

Reply to
Dave Hinz

Reply to
Bobs your Uncle

This is exactly right. I do keep my cars for many years (8,14, currently 5) years but don't put many miles on them. I don't mind so much say needing major break work after a long time of ownership but the smaller things, like a windshield wiper that overshot its path and kept hitting the window frame which took several visits to 3 different mechanics to fix. Or a fuel gauge which showed a true reading for the first half of a tank but then dropped down to near empty, forcing me to use the trip odometer to gauge how much gas I had left. Repair would have been a major undertaking requiring removing the gas tank said the dealer. Or the small leak that developed under the door which allowed rain water to soak the carpet under the floor mats. The pop up sun roof that developed a small leak requiring me to leave a small bucket on the back floor to catch the drips. The electric window which would sometimes refuse to work but be ok most of the time. A steering wheel where the outer plastic cracked cracked. Etc. Some of these things happened within the first 2 or 3 years and were covered under warranty but it is a major pain to bring the car in and have to wait around the dealer for hours to get these annoyances fixed. (Only my last dealer provided a loaner car and only if they knew they had to keep my car overnight.)

These were all American cars. One develpoed a transmission problem about the

11th year but I wouldn't say that was because the car was generally undrliable. I can't say I've had a car that needed a lot of major work since the 70s or early 80s. I have friends who swear by their Toyotas and Hondas, claiming to never need anything but oil changes. Sounds good to me, but the key here is they don;t keep their cars for more than 4 - 6 years.

To answer the question many of you asked, I was considering a new 9-3. I liked the safety rating it received a short time ago. But I do hear Volvo and Saab owners talk about their cars being "quirky." If quirky means a lot of little things going wrong but it still starts and runs, I don't consider that reliable. That it should start and run I consider a given.

This does not sound good.

Thanks for all the replies so far.

Reply to
Just Asking

I think you have nailed the description of "quirky" as it applies to SAABs. Compound that with the generally exhorbitant rates charged by SAAB dealers and, if you can't fix little things (like wiper blades and minor leaks you menhtioned), I'd say you ought to stay clear of them.

They run well and drive nicely. They also last a very long time with proper care, and are quite easy to work on, but they *are* prone to having a lot of small problems that will drive you nuts if you have to bring it back to the dealer each time.

One that does not apply to a lot of vehicles...

My definition of a reliable vehicle is one that won't strand you on the side of the road somewhere. And, actually, if you have been reading all of the other threads you'll know that modern SAABs *are* actually known to do this from failed direct ignition cassettes.

I can live with a little problem here or there that only requires my attention on Saturday afternoon to set it straight. It's the towing stuff I can't abide by.

YMMV,

-Fred W

Reply to
Malt_Hound

Agreed...it was not pleasurable to shovel out a bucket full of money only to have these problems with such a new car. The only saving grace was that my Saab dealer's service has been second to none. Having been through the service grind before with typical American car service shops, I was pleasantly surprised to find Saab's service to be second to none. They provided loaner cars and even at home pickup/dropoff service. While, it was annoying to have the problems to begin with, it was clear the dealer wanted the problems cause as little pain as possible. This was a huge difference compared with my prior American car dealership experiences.

Thanks to the dealership, as of today, the car is in purrfect condition, and I'm loving it!

The key is to find a good dealership.

- tex

Reply to
Tex

Yes. Always true. My last Oldsmobile dealer was a frickin' nightmare.

I'm intrigued by the advice given earlier to get an off lease pre-owned Saab. I've never owned a used car before because of the philosophy that you are buying someone else's problems and my general experience that refurbished appliances always seem to fail prematurely even if they were supposedly brought back to factory specs. It's good to hear your car has been repaired well but I'd like to know, from you and others who have has their cars longer, if once the "small" issues are fixed do they stay fixed or do they reoccur? Is the problem in poor assembly or inherent flaws?

Reply to
Just Asking

Luckily, I've never had to be towed in my life. I'd also prefer a car that never stranded me but that had annoying problems to one that had no "little" problems but left me without transport. My reality has always been the opposite however.

Reply to
Just Asking

Well, it depends. With a leased car, you have a known service history. If it's had all the scheduled work done on time (normal for a leased car), and if it's been well-behaved, there aren't any problems to inherit...you just let the lease holder pay off the depreciation hit for you.

The Swedish workmen who build the car seem to take extreme care in making sure build quality is excellent, going back at least 45 years to the oldest Saab I own. It's not in their culture to do things poorly. Yes, that's a sweeping generalization, but I can't think of a single product from Sweden that is engineered or built poorly.

Reply to
Dave Hinz

[...]

Yes, I agree with that. I bought my 1993 9000 CSE from a private seller in early 1997. The car cost less that I paid for a new Fiat Croma* in 1987. It has been much better than the Fiat and it still feels like new.

*) I actually bought the new Fiat Croma in 1986. The engine had a metallic noise that I didn't like. I had the cylinder head replaced twice under warranty, but it made no difference. I didn't like to keep a car with this problem, so the dealer agreed a 'good will' trade in for another Fiat Croma in 1987. It costs me extra £2000, but I thought it was better than being stuck with a doubtful car. Nothing worse than buying a brand new car and ending up with a lemon.
Reply to
Johannes

Its certainly nice to know that no present day manufacturer is selling unreliable junk and that most mass produced cars are all very similar. Including Saab.

Reply to
John Hudson

Ford, GM, Chrysler, and any other major auto maker that's been around for decades could sell junk for years, and still survive off of their "name." But, the only reason any of them could do this is simple......they built a strong customer base by selling a good product at one time. The same could be said for any product.

Reply to
Bobs your Uncle

Have you owned anything newer than a 1993 Saab?

Reply to
ma_twain

in article snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com, ma_twain at ma snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote on 22/05/2005 20:49:

Me? Yes, but not SAAB - they've all been FIATs and despite FIATs reputation for reliability, I've not been let down by any of them either. In fact, only my current one has had anything replaced, other than normal service items. I suppose that's why I've had four FIATs :)

I have been thinking about a newer SAAB for some time now, but since the C900 keeps going on as a daily runner without much attention, I'm not quite getting the "push" I need. If I was, it would be a late model 9000.

Paul

1989 900 Turbo S
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Reply to
Paul Halliday

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