winterbanden met velgen

Hi fellow Saabers.

Please reflect on my salutation and please excuse any offence that I may cause in this post. I play Devil's Advocate.

Xenna makes several good points about the use of a single language (English) on an NG like this. What I would disagree with is that English is a minority language. This requires further scrutiny and clarity in definition. If, by minority, it is meant little in numbers or % compared to the total population on the Earth, then yes, English is a minority language. But this comparator is, in my view, not legitimate. English, of all the World's languages, is the most common, internationally used language, particularly in business. Is it not the official language of the European Union????????(Pardone moi, my French friends and colleagues).

I would like to make a further point in relation to the view that was expressed about the use of different languages on a world-wide NG like this one. (Although I do accept the point made earlier that most Saab owners on this NG are in North America and the UK). My point is that, whilst the use of different languages encourages and upholds nationalistic issues, it is inherently self-destructive. Take the UK, for instance. Our current government in its support for ethnic minorities (and an immigration policy that lies in shreds) is spending millions of GBP on employing classroom assistants who speak non-English languages to reflect the ethnic mix of whatever school they are employed in. So in certain inner city schools in certain English cities where kids from an Asian "background" (used advisedly) abound they are being taught in their ethnic language not English (which is taught later as a second language). What will happen, as it did in certain US cities where this was carried out, is further and fatal alienation of ethnic groups, a lack of integration into British culture and society and further and catastrophic polarisation of the Community. Notwithstanding the permanent damage that will be done in an English speaking society to their long term education. The money of course could be better spent on buying books and improving the physical fabric of a decaying educational infrastructure. Political correctness gone mad!! If I went to live in China or Pakistan I would be expect, out of courtesy at least, to comply and fit in to the local national culture. Why not in the UK?

So let us not lose the plot here my Saab brothers and sisters. Whilst there be no charter (I would much rather prefer the use of the term "convention") to only use English, effective communication (for this is surely what this NG is all about) can only occur if all can understand what is being communicated. Is this not a self-evident fact?

I, as Devil's Advocate, rest my case.

Let the debate begin.

Pete Brown

"Dexter J" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@lamelamelame.org...

OK, my turn. For a start I'm not your brother or sister. The usenet is anarchy and anybody can write what he wants. We may not like it, but nobody can stop it. In fact, I could write in Danish was it not because this keyboard is not very suitable. Most Scandinavians would understand it. A disadvantage would be that fewer will be able to read my posts, but the important point to notice is that the disadvantage would be on my part, not the reader who will just skip over. Similarly, I often skip over top posters as I find it cumbersome for my newsreader. This is a problem for the top poster, not for me. I also have a slight problem with people insisting writing everything in lower case, this is not even an official script method. A minority language is.

We can take this further. Minority languages in the UK or elsewhere is only a problem if the language is insufficient for reaching the audience intended by the author, otherwise I don't see any problem.

To get the most from your posting, post in the "accepted language that the Group uses. Its"s better for you and more interesting for others.

And I do know Nederlanders who speak flawless English

Malcolm

"convention")

Alrighty! It must be my turn now.

You have entirely misunderstood the "my Saab brothers and sisters" thing and I am not even going to try and explain it in case I insult the kindness and intelligence of my fellow Saab owners. Quite frankly I really don't give a

*%$& whether you are a brother or a sister (hey its free world) and I won't be going there again.

When I enter this NG I do not see anarchy. I accept that one is free to write in a language of one's choosing and that one may also write anything that one wants. I may or may not like it but it happens. It happens very rarely though. In the vast majority of posts I see kindness, courtesy, frankness and occasional rudeness. I see a great Saab gathering of minds. What I do not see is anarchy.

I note the points you make about being disadvantaged.

I'm sorry Johannes, I fail to see the point you are making here. What I would say, subject to later correction my yourself I'm sure, is that in the UK the language of the country is English, but there are people, within their own ethnic communities in the UK who use Hindi, Urdu, Cantonese, Welsh, Irish, Gaelic to name but a few as a means of cultural expression and within the context of those cultures, communication. But when you come out into the big bad world of everyday living there must surely be an ability to speak the language of the country you are living in. To try and cater for all those languages by printing leaflets and guide books or employing interpreters in all those languages just diverts scarce money from a state system (I'm talking about the UK here) that is seriously in the midst of a funding crisis. This in turn builds up resentment in the indiginous community. The point is simply put.

Anyways, the debate has begun and we will see where it leads. Not as long as Milton's great "Tyre Complaint" epic. :)

If I may leave the alter-ego of the Devil's Advocate behind and allow Pete to speak.

I am very sorry that you reacted to the Saab Brothers and Sisters thing they way you did. Where I come from in the UK, the term Brother or Sister is used as a term of friendliness or common interest/purpose and does not assume a formal connection with the other party either by blood or by marriage.

Best Wishes

Pete Brown

Like it or not the reality is that English has displace the only other language which had any claim to being a lingua franca i.e. French.

Try selling your products in Instanbul or tokyo using Dutch or Swahili

Malcolm

>

But Turkish or Japanese would work well.

Bad example, considering a lot of people living in Holland are Turkish and go to Turkey for their vacation. Also Turkey is starting to become a really popular Dutch holiday destination.

Mark Gerritsma

[...]

As I reside in the UK, I'm well aware of the multi cultural society here. I should probably be offended that nothing is printed in Danish, but couldn't be arsed :) Nevertheless, in the context of hospital clinics and medicine, it's probably useful to have leaflets in many languages; it could save lives.

The Welsh are probably the most touchy and I was amazed that some election results were announced twice, in both English and Welsh, as in some European song contest. But I have learned that in this society the less said about such issues the better. Just let people get on with their lives, sooner or later they will want your attention for something and that will involve knowledge of your English language. A cultural identity is important for most people; it's the government's job to keep check and balances on the system.

Never mind, again let anarchy prevail. Our disagreement is only a matter of personal taste. Brothers and sisters used that way smacks of secret or sectarian societies. My Saab is not a symbol or an icon, but it's a very nice car.

OK, I'll let you off - for now.

Johannes

Greetings, Johannes.

Its Pete here this time not the Devil's Advocate.

Thanks for your further post.

Some final comments below.

I know you reside in the UK. I have checked out your website via the link in your posts (its important to know who you are up against). I am genuinely sympathetic with your points about Danish and the UK and about saving lives. I have never had the pleasure of working in another country that speaks a different language. I have done business with the French, the Germans, the Canadians and the Americans. I have studied in America but the language was broadly similar. No challenges there for me, although I found the culture interestingly dis-similar.

You are totally correct about UK society. That is why I made the point about political correctness gone mad. People have lost their jobs for speaking out. Although I see David Blunkett, the Home Secretary, wants to introduce a "Britishness" test for those immigrants and asylum seekers who wish stay.

But a cultural ID is still very important to most people.

Accepted.

That's OK by me as well , Johannes. I will put the Devil's Advocate into hibernation (time of year for it, isn't it?) only to be trundled out when there is some other cause to shout about or soapbox to jump on.

(Message from the Devil's Advocate.............Mmmmmmm, I see you are letting me off for now. I look forward to the time when our paths cross again. Then we shall see. Heh, heh, heh [Evil laugh continues as character exits stage left]). ;)

Regards

Pete

Based on the content of the post, he should have used Spamish.

Robert,

Pure nieuwsgierigheid; ben je die velgen ook nog kwijtgeraakt na al deze gratis reclame?

(Just curious; did you get rid of your wheels after all this free advertising?) lol

Groeten/Cheers, Tom 03 - 93SS Aero

"r. van westerhoven" schreef in bericht news:bn3ppa$n2h$ snipped-for-privacy@news.hccnet.nl...

Just another small commentregarding the universality of English.

I have actually observed, in Switzerland, three Swiss in a "heated discussion" , each of whom spoke a different mother tongue, conducting their "discussion" in English in which all three were very fluent.

Later I asked of one of them, a more personal friend, why the discussion did not take place in French, German, Italian, or Romanche(sp?) ?

My collegue informed me that it happens all the time. That there is a "type" who will not give the other guy the satisfaction of using that guys language. The universal language, English, is used . That way no one is given advantage (or satifaction).

One does have to admit that, at least in the literary sense, English has the richest vocabulary.

Yet, it was not that long ago, just a little prior to my university years, that, at least in North America, if you intended to major or specialize in chemistry one presumed a need for a reasonable fluency in German.

The consequences are not just those that the poster experiences.

An NG, at least this NG has a sense of sharing. Posting in the most commonly understood allows more participation.

I could post in French. Mine is good enough.But I would seriously limit interaction. I would do even worse if I used the Canadian brand with which I have more than a passing aquaintance but then I might be misunderstood In Beauce County, Quebec.

Malcolm

Strange since French, German or Italian are imported languages anyway.

Very doubtful though. I always smile when someone on the street says that you dropped something on the 'floor'. In Danish we distinguish clearly between inside and outside floors. Just but a small example, I've also heard that there is a possibility that Spanish will be the main North American language; there are already bi-lingual signs in most places. Perhaps and perhaps not.

In spite of pressures from English on a small country (Film, TV, Computers), academics have shown that the root structure of Danish language has not changed one bit. No chance that English will take over as a universal language. Here around London, words are added every day to the language from the Indian/Chinese cuisine since there are now more Indian restaurants here than English.

True. English has taken over as the international language for scientific books and papers.

As, of course, does English. That use of "floor" is AFAIK a regional (north country?) idiom. When employed to signify "the ground", it is likely a whimsical and/or humorous connotation is implicit.

A book which goes deeply (possibly too deeply) into the evolution of English from the USian POV is Bill Bryson's "Made In America". This spends some time discussing the roots of English which, as I expect many know, rapidly acquired a vast treasury of words from Britain's sundry international (ad)ventures, both commercial and political. My guess is, it was helped in this by its established acceptance and use of metaphors (as derived from the Germanic and Scandinavian cultures of so many of its early, ahem, tourists and immigrants). English enjoys playing games with meanings.

Therefore (one hears), a typical "English --> X // X --> English" dictionary will be fatter in the "English --> X" part, due to the extra words needing translation. (NB, that is what one hears, so please don't shoot the messenger.)

But, let's face it, a living language will usually have whatever words its users need. Shortages lead to creation (or borrowing) of new words. Surpluses lead, eventually, to withering and loss.

(All wildy off-topic for this NG. Butwhattheheck...)

-- Andrew Stephenson

A comment here..

Floor.. yes, no particular word for outside floor except deck, patio, porch, stoop, landing, balcony, etc... which might be substituted depending on the speaker. In many Eskimo languages, there are multiple words for snow, depending on the conditions. In English, you need to do with adjectives or phrases.

I think that perhaps English might be a very rich general purpose language, but you can debate that as well.

As to bi-lingual signs in most places, english/spanish... I'd day no.

You have them in places where there is a significant spanish speaking population. For example, the drive up bank tellers and credit card machines have a spanish language option. However, the local Wal-mart does not yet have bi-lingual signs, nor, for that matter, does much of anything else.

If you go to Miami, Florida, or south Florida, you will find a significant spanish speaking population, all refugees from Cuba. There you will find people who only speak spanish. Official literature is provided for them in their native tongue, as well as whatever the businesses will provide.

All varies.

Harvey

I saw the start of that a number of years ago whilst visiting.

You can see the equivalent in Toronto.

Here (Birmingham, Alabama, not a place you'd equate with culture at first impulse). There are Japanese, Thai, Chinese, Mexican, Korean (at least one), grocery stores and restaurants. Less, surprisingly, than French, for example.

Harvey

And British choice too. Been twice, love it. Would love to be in Istambul for the Eurovision finals next year (the GF is a Eurovision nut, and if I could secure tickets and flight/hotel, it would really make a cool surprise).