'01 LW300 groaning

Ahhhhhhhhh! You startled me! You really should warn people before you post in this group. ;-)

You have covered off all of the things I would have suspected. Have you tried to hold a vacuum hose up to your ear and isolate the sound?

Sorry to startle you. Saturn may be dead as a company but many of their fine products (albeit with a few quirks) live on. My uncle used to own a Tucker...

I'm up in the country with limited tools right now. Hopefully things will hold together for the 200 mile trip home. Whole engine is like a sounding board and very difficult to pinpoint location. I did try using a big screwdriver (handle end to ear) and touching the blade to various places. Inconclusive so far. Oppie

Well, we made it home to White Plains, NY just in advance of hurricane Irene. Pretty tame here, just lost a lot of leaves and a few small branches. Some of the neighbors weren't so lucky. Spent most of last Sunday with chain saw and re-lighting flooded out water heaters. Where we had been vacationing in Ludlow, Vermont, there were major floods and road wash-outs. Was a good call to head home a few days early.

Been tinkering and put a wrench to the serpentine belt tensioner while the engine was running. loosening the belt caused the groan to diminish as the belt slipped. Vibrations on the tensioner made it look like the tensioner bearings had failed. Got a new assembly from AutoZone ($55 vs $110 for last one through Saturn parts). Put the new part in and while I had the belt loose, gave all the rotating components a wiggle. Sure enough the water pump had some play. Put the belt on and groan was still there. Sometimes you get off easy other times, not so...

Water pump is only another $50 or so from AutoZone (choice of rebuilt or new Duralast - I'll go with the later). Installation is a headache so I'll set aside a whole day to do it. Then again, timing belt is due for replacement soon so may just let a shop do the whole shebang. Friend's shop charged me $600 last time. Basically his cost. Too many special tools needed to change timing belt with V6 DOHC. Can't justify the purchase of the tools though by second use, is becoming more cost effective.

Oppie

OK, taking a lunch break. New pump is in and I have to start torqueing and reassembling now. Didn't quite do it per the shop manual. Right front side of car is on a jack stand, Floor jack with board over the saddle to protect the oil pan is under the oil pan. This supports the engine while the right side engine mount is removed.

Couldn't loosen the water pump pulley bolts with the engine mount in place so took off the mount, loosened the bolts on the pulley and THEN took off the belt. Engine moved a bit doing this but hopefully will line up again at final assembly.

Oh, well, back to work before it rains...

And SURYEY SAYS It wasn't the water pump. Pump definitely needed replacing so I can't kick about that. When I took out the old pump, it had some play in the bearings and leaked oil out when I set it down on the ground.

Now most likely candidate is the alternator. It's the original and I have almost 180K on it so owes me absolutely nothing. Just another pain to get to it...

On the positive side, the sound is definitely coming from one of the accessories driven by the serpentine belt and is toward the rear of the motor. The power steering pump (which was my first guess) and A/C compressor bodies have only normal vibration; Alternator body has lots. That's not to say it isn't the rack and pinion assembly. With this many miles on the alternator, I'll replace it anyway.

Sounds like a great way to spend the Labor Day weekend or as we say in Canada Labour Day!

Good luck on the alternator!

Unlike the tensioner and water pump that were in the $50 range, the alternator is coming up as $215 plus core charge. Alternator is tucked way under the engine toward the rear. Don't even know yet how difficult it is to get to. Shop manual didn't give much information. I remember what a royal pain getting to the starter motor was when the solenoid had fried (5 years ago).

The other good thing I forgot to mention is that while I had the timing belt housing off to get to the water pump, I could see that the timing belt and all the idlers were in good shape and well tensioned. I'll give it another look next year.

... I thought in Canada, it was Labrador day... Where in Canada are you?

My son had permanently 'borrowed' my torque wrench. Went up the street to one of the new neighbors to borrow his. They just moved in from Germany and he works with Lufthansa at Kennedy Airport in NYC. He was proudly telling me about Opel and how they designed the L-series.

I recommend you use a proper mechanics stethoscope, the kind with a rod attached to a small diaphragm. Touch the rod to suspected problem areas while engine is running. It will really isolate sounds like bad bearings. They are not expensive and are often available @ cheap tools R us. In a pinch a short length of hose held to one ear can also be very helpful.

Good luck YMMV

I had taken a long screwdriver putting the handle to my ear and touching the long blade to bits and pieces. Two problems though - Can't quite see the blade while handle it to ear. Best to place it and then put ear to handle. Wife asked why I had a perfect circle of grease in my ear. Best to wipe down the messy handle before using in this manner...

The engine with all it's solidly mounted accessories is a huge sounding board. Sounds are pretty readily coupled throughout the package which makes localizing a bit difficult.

Just ordered a torque wrench to replace the one my son 'borrowed'. Harbor Freight had a half price deal over Labor day.

Ah, I miss messing with my car... The new one (2008 VUE) is still under the 3 year bumper to bumper warranty, my old one 1991 Mustang was taken from me suddenly 2 and 1/2 years ago. She was T-Boned in an intersection buy a guy who ran a red light (she did not suffer).

Unfortunately I did not fare so well and getting up and down to work under a car has gotten to be a challenge.

The warranty will expire near the end of this year due to mileage (I use the VUE for work) so I am not sure if I will be working on it or looking for a good cheap mechanic.

I was born, raised, and currently live in the Vancouver area of BC. Costs an arm and a leg to live here, but I would not live any other place...

You need to try a proper diaphragm type stethoscope to realize just how good they really are. The screwdriver in the ear can be helpful as is the length of hose, but IMHO, neither come close to a diaphragm stethoscope.

Just my .02

And a good .02 it is. I'll keep my eyes open for one.

I'm still looking to buy one of the funky tools to remove the reusable bands around all the intake runners so I can service the thermostat. It's buried way under the intake plumbing.

IIRC these clamps are easily removed using any fairly large adjustable pliers or 'water pump' slip joint pliers. The clamps self lock in the open position, and can be closed by pressing on the lock open tab (with a srewdriver or such).

IIRC, I purchased my last diaphragm type mechanic's stethoscope for

I'll give it a try. Worst come to worst, can just tie it off with bailing wire...

Engine's just so pretty looking. Don't want to mess it up. That 3 Liter engine is a beast.

Finally ponied up for a new alternator. Friend's shop got me a new Bosch 120 amp unit for $175, his cost. He trusts me to return the core. Retail cost was anywhere from $230 to $250.

Fun part was trying to remove the alternator. Actually, removing the alternator from the engine was fairly simple. Removing it from the engine compartment was a total pain in the A--!

remove - battery clamp. Tends to lay back against battery so put a insulating block between cable and battery to prevent accidental touching. Removed the airbox and MAF sensor. Remove serpentine belt and remove tensioner assy from block. Remove one bolt from top of alternator. Jack up car and remove front right wheel. Remove lower alternator bolt through wheel well (just above driveshaft). Pry alternator out of brackets, remove two electrical connections (status and battery). Now it gets interesting as there is no reasonable way to remove the alternator from the engine compartment. I finally was able to remove it between the engine and firewall but only after I undid cables and removed right side engine mount allowing engine to be moved up and forward slightly. Took me about 90 minutes to figure this out since the saturn shop manual only said 'remove generator.'

Give the old generator pulley a spin and to my great joy definitely hear the sound of a bad bearing. Got it right this time.

OK, now install new generator and notice that it sits very loose in the mount with bolts hand tightened. Thought I lost a shim and spend another 10 minutes looking for one. Not to be found. Didn't say anywhere that these generators have as their inboard support, a threaded bushing that is pressed in. As you torque the bolts to spec, the bushing slides out and gives a very firm connection. Very nice but I wish that there had been some information about this.

Reinstall tensioner assy, install serpentine belt, reinstall engine mount (had jack supporting oil pan while engine mount was out)...

Everything all installed and torqued to specs. Turn the key to on and wait until the high pitched sound from the engine stops. This is the chopping drive to the throttle motor (it's a drive by wire). Gives engine controller a baseline for MAF and MAP sensors. Leave key in on position and start.

Amazing! Groan is gone. Mission successful and took about three hours. One used to be able to do these things in about 20 minutes in RWD cars.

Was reading that these are brushless generators. Was curious about the construction but not curious enough to take it apart for fear that core return would be voided. My day job is electrical engineering. If anybody is interested what the difference between brushed and brushless designs, here are a few references:

Oppie