Consumer Reports: "Disappointing ION"...

This review sums it up:

...Cars.com lists the retail price range from $10.4k to $20.4k (USD) however the Saturn site shows the lowest price at $15.4k (USD) and I didn't have much luck pricing the Red Line on the Saturn site. There's a lime green car at my dealer that catches my eye too.

My guess is that a lot of people felt GM could simply DO BETTER if they'd stop being the obnoxious penny pinchers they've been for the last

20+ years. There are no secrets to automobile design or manufacturing.

That, and GM has deceided to not even bother competing with the Japanese anymore (who IMHO are hardly the invulnerable gods that we think they are, just better at covering mistakes).

What's sad is GM could make some really really great cars if they'd just let engineering do it. They've come up with some really neat things in years past...

Warren ( snipped-for-privacy@nospam.net) wrote: : Objectively, other than the gripers who should never have bought one, what : do you think dislikes are that has made ION such a poor seller for Saturn? : Any ideas?

Bizarro styling, esp. the wheels/wheel covers and goofy roof rails. Center-mount instruments Cheap plasticky interior Uncomfortable seats Steering wheel Rattles/buzzes/build quality

I think that's a start...

-- Greg Beaulieu snipped-for-privacy@chebucto.ns.ca Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada

snipped-for-privacy@chebucto.ns.ca (Greg Beaulieu) wrote in news:c9ur0a$1sv$ snipped-for-privacy@News.Dal.Ca:

I don't think the ION is a bad seller as much as the VUE is a great one, does anybody have numbers in how much the ION sells compared to other cars in its class?

There's nothing wrong with the ION compared to other small cars. It's the best small car I've driven lately. You need to be more concerned with driving than worrying about the feel of the interior to enjoy one.

(08:30 June 02, 2004) Slow-selling Saturn Ion gets mid-course correction

By DAVE GUILFORD | Automotive News

DETROIT - General Motors will try to give the slow-selling Saturn Ion more style and refinement for the 2005 model year, replacing the automatic transmission, fascia, seats and interior materials.

The Ion needed "big changes (to help) those areas that consumers have told us, quite frankly, need improvement," said Gary Cowger, president of GM North America, in a recent interview.

Lori Queen, GM vehicle line executive for small cars, including the Ion, said last week that GM is applying many of the features developed for the 2005 Chevrolet Cobalt, which shares the Ion's Delta small-car architecture.

"We could roll (Cobalt features) right into the Ion and really get that car to a level that it hasn't been," Queen said.

For the 2005 Ion, GM plans to:

Replace the five-speed automatic transmission with a four-speed to counter complaints of "shift busy-ness," according to spokesman Michael Morrissey.

Replace the small steering wheel with a full-sized one.

Recalibrate the electric steering to improve responsiveness.

Add interior materials to improve appearance and tactile feel at "touch points."

Add laminated steel and insulation to cut interior noise.

Replace seats with better bolstered ones.

Redesign the sedan's fascia.

The Ion was developed at Saturn, whose product development has since been merged into GM's. Cost-consciousness was a big factor in Saturn's product decisions, Queen said.

"The decisions for that product were made in a different kind of environment," she said.

The Ion went on sale in September 2002 to poor reviews from the automotive press. GM sold 117,230 last year and has sold 33,408 through the first four months of this year, down slightly from last year. Saturn had a 108-day supply of Ions on May 1. Sixty days is considered normal.

Another perspective:

I think the size of the market ... the Ford Focus and some of the KIA/Hondai cars take up a lot of that ... Saturn did not and probably could not keep an edge on low cost, high quality, small cars ... that is just too profitable of a market for others players ... The L series, Vue, and the Relay Van should continue to do pretty good ... many of us who bought the S series are needing bigger cars. I still have my 98 SL2 but it is a second car and not longer a trip car for me ...

Well, looks like the numbers are in the next post (excellent source..) I just knew the numbers were low due to layoffs I'd heard about, the amount of days worth in stock (which I'd heard about) and my emails to Thompson / Chilton and Haynes asking for the debut of their respective repair manuals, to which both tactfully replied [paraphrasing] that their manuals are issued based on sales, and Ion, frankly, has not sold enough to warrant a publication from either publisher.

I still like the car - even better than when I bought it. And I do not quite understand all the criticisms about "plastic interior"...most cars these days are. My '93 Saturn was. Everyone else I know who drives cars in this class have a plastic interior...

Hey - thanks for all the opinions and links. It give some insight to it all...but the negatives have not dissuaded me any in my satisfaction, (When I can afford a Porsche or Lexus it might, but for the class...nope...no real disappointments yet...)

The funky name, ads, and motto ("specifically designed for what ever comes next" ?????), as well as the center mounted instruments, all turned me off. They seemed to be aimed at kids which may have driven off adults, although that may have been part of the plan to get adults into the L series ...

ron herfurth

94 SL-1

Yeh, It pays to listen to authorities. My daughter recently purchased an Ion and I got the Civic. I should have read the article.

My Honda gets 25 mpg at best. It has zero,,,yes zero acceleration It has no room It doesn't even have a secondary 12v power plug in the back seat area.

My poor daughter got the Ion. When ever she visits I drive her car for fun

How Odd, NO DAMM ACCELERATION!!!

But it's got "The best 4 cylinder engine in the world" in it!

That's like saying you've got the best above ground pool. It really isn't that impressive.

Interior? Well, it's designed for midgets. No power plug? The Japanese, and even worse, the Europeans, really don't understand the American desire for cupholders and 'features'

I had a dip in a riced up Civic pull next to me and blip the motor at a light the other day. He really thought he could take my Harley. IIRC, i had about a 500 foot lead on him before I scrubbed off some speed and waited for him to catch up. 100 HP, 100 ft-lbs in a 800 lb bike will not be beaten by the same numbers in a car 1500 lbs heavier and 2x as many wheels. Sorry.

Take advantage of the ooo ahh feeling over Hondas and trade your's in. My dad got an Odessy the other year (2003!) and is already talking about it because:

• Shit mileage.

• A transmission that can NOT make up it's mind what gear it's in.

• Dealers so arrogant they make BMW shops look friendly.

• Shit mileage.

Oh yeah, the mileage sucks too.

I'm guessing it'll be his first / last Honda. This is the first car he's actually hated, and he used to have a Vega (With the shitty aluminum 4!) when I was young...

The Chevy Vega (which I believe was first introduced in the 1970 or 1971 model year) was actually (just a bit too far) ahead of its time. The aluminum alloy engine block was nice and light, but the cylinder walls unfortunately did not hold up well over time and the under-designed cooling system caused problems due to the differing coefficients of thermal expansion with the steel head resulting in head gasket sealing problems, coolant loss, overheating and warpage.

I rebuilt several of these engines when I was a lot younger. I eventually learned to use a bored and (steel) sleeved remanufactured short block and replaced the standard (smaller) radiator with the larger HD one used for the AC equipped version. With these modifications and several others including an Edelbrock manifold, Holley 4 barrel carburetor, and headers my tiny little 140 cubic inch 2.3 L engine actually ran very well. And, when I got rid of the car after 60K miles, it still burned almost no oil between 3K changes.

Bob

I need to get me one of those evo create motors... The funny thing is those honda kiddies want their cars to sound like a big bad hardly sooo bad with all that exhaust crap they throw on there. It aint gonna happen kids. I've seen people do the same to saturns... Sad sad sad. When I see cars like that at auctions of any make I stay away from them. You couldnt pay me to take something owned by some punk kid who has no idea how to spend his money.

Don't forget the incredibly heavy cast iron cylinder head. The Vega "aluminum" engine actually weighed more than the cast iron "Pinto" engine. As I recall, the real reason for the cast aluminum block was cost, not to save weight. GM built a cool plant to precision die cast the open deck block. The theroy was less machining was required. Too bad they screwed it up.

Ed

Honda dealers are funny (odd). Waaaaay too much attitude in general.

Lots of comments in this thread, including a little Honda bashing. As a long-time Honda owner / fan, I'd just like to say a few words, um'k?

I'm on my third new Honda (plus 1 used). Unfreggin'belivable servicing on my Hondas over the years. My current one is now 5 years old with almost 70k miles and not a single issue! Nada! But it's important to note that all servicing gets done by Honda and strictly by the book. Even more important is that I've never molested any of my cars in even the slightest way.

I've been a repeat customer since 1989 for a reason. But will I repeat yet again? Nope. And here's why...

First, I just don't like the styling of most Hondas made after the late '80s / early '90s. No ?affordable? Honda does it for me anymore in the same way that my co-worker's new '86 Acura Integra did when I first saw it (we didn't even know what an 'Acura' was). Or how about the late '80s Preludes? Simply stunning IMO, even if they never shared the Accords? and Civics? stellar reputation for reliability (though always one notch below Toyota). And while I can't say that my '89 CRX Si was a head turner, it did introduce me to the goodness that is Honda, and was probably a better car than the one I REALLY wanted, a new '89 Fiero?that never was.

While all three of my Civics have been outstandingly good cars, my '89 CRX Si (the only one actually shipped from Japan) was probably the better built car, as well as my ?86 Integra LS (bought used from my wife?s boss who took really good care of it). Now I?m not saying that the good people of Ohio can't build a good quality car (or can they? - more on that in a moment) as my last two Ohio born Civics are / were as tight as a drum. I?m still impressed with my American built car every time I drive it.

Pic of a red ?99 Civic Si for reference?

BUT...

...the times are a changing and Honda is going downhill. Regarding the current Civic?

?Way too many rattles, way too many shades of metallic in the paint, harsh ride, numb path control on the interstate. Something new from Honda ? a loser.? ? Car & Driver

I didn?t just take Car & Driver?s word for it that Honda sucks (we know how car rags can be sometimes), I investigated these issues for myself. And with the exception of maybe the S2000, Hondas just aren?t built to perfection anymore.

Pic of a Honda S2000 for reference (the yellow car)?

Fit-and-finish are no longer flawless. Maybe still above average, but not PERFECT! If I can?t get that perfect build quality which I?ve become accustom to with even my cheap cars, then I?ll start looking at competitors who usually offer more power, more size, and more features for the money. A less than perfect build quality is going to come back to bite Honda on the ass, and I praise honest car rags like Car & Driver for pointing this out. I sure hope Alabama builds Odysseys better than Ohio is building Civics and Accords. BTW, my parent?s ?00 Accord EX is not up to par either. Their '91 Accord LX was, but not their '00.

Hondas are just plain fugly nowadays anyway. I can never forgive them for the '93+ Integra (although the RSX is an improvement). And the Accord, ughhh! They uglyfied it in '94 and it's never looked good since. And neither has the Prelude since '91. UGLY! UGLY! FUUUUGLY! The Accord and Civic sedans are beyond fugly and I'm sure the Civic coupe is next. I blame the stylist in California who are designing these fugly abominations (or anyone still left in Japan)! The "H" is for homely.

And I hear that Honda?s 3.5L V6 is complete garbage (but itz got V-TECH, yo!) and the auto transmission is a piece of crap (my brother?s ?02 Odyssey tranny has been recalled). So screw Honda, my next car will be a domestic (and one that?s built in the US of A ? not Canada or Mexico). In fact, the new Mustang GT is what my automotive dreams are made of.

?05 Mustang GT!!! V8, baby!, WooHoo!

Harly motor? Screw the HD ones, get an S&S 113" Dump a better cam in, and have fun. They make wheelies easy and fun...

The block was light. The head? Heh. Heavy. I don't get GM at times. Harley had aluminum heads in the 30's, GM had iron heads in the 70's...

The cooling system I can vouch for - the thing would overheat in traffic on a 980 degree day. And it wouldn't shut off for a feqw secs most of the time either. Wow, it ran hot.

IIRC, the ads in the mid 70's for it actually boasted how the car was more likely to start in the rain, due to the HEI system. It's amazing how far we've come!

There was AC available? Gah. IIRC, the car had maybe 100hp on a good day, and they weren't light cars either.

And you couldn't put a tranny cooler on them! Stupid GM had that stupid

350 with the holes in it and no cooler passages. Thank god my dad's had a 350 in it, it was far overengineered for that car's motor. Only gave up once, after 150,000...

Oh, once the car got tolling, it ran. It was starting it and shutting it off that it never really got down right...