E85 for 94 Saturn

Here you go -

Go to the web site and click on E85 101 on the left side of the page. Then click on FAQ to get all your answers :)

~~Phil~~

When I asked about usind e85, and wondering the requirements, I was told I had to have my car's fuel system fully stainless steel.

Considering my amount of underside rust I have, I didn't even want to look. I'm just guessing what type of materials must have been used in my 97SL2.

later,

tom @

ALso E85 has less energy so it does not have the silver lining you are looking for and you will need to replace all of your metal fuel lines with Stainless Steel ones because of high water content of it by chemical nature. .

----------------- The SnoMan

Didnt find anything very hopeful on the "emmision test" qualifier. Seems that our wonderful government makes it illegal to install aftermarket conversion on non E85 vehicles. On the other hand... (who's business is it what I do under the hood as long as I can still pass emission tests!!!) I mean - will the EPA police be parked somewhere near the E85 pumps, watching for ethanol anarchists?!

The only possibly definate I found so far is a kit from

think its built in Brazil. Dont know for sure if it is plug/polaritycompatible. It has a remote alcohol/gasoline switch. Polarityinversion kit is $90. Four cylinder wiring/computer kit is $516(WHEW!) I have no idea if the plastic Saturn fuel tank, fuel pump, or fuel lines are E85 Ok. (Anyone?)

I assume that the "brain" in the FlexTec unit works with the original PCM in a way that emulates the volumetric equivalent of gasoline, but controls the operation of the fuel injectors autonomously. (I guess that should work!)

Unless the cost advantage of E85 becomes more significant though, I dont think the cost of converting would be economically feasable.

-WaV

Phil Marshall wrote:

As an individual doing a DIY swap federal EPA regulations are of minimal concern. The Federales have never prosecuted a DIYer for violations yet. Passing your State regulations if your state has inspections is a concern.

E85 does not present a problem to metal fuel components but it might to various rubber parts. Most rubber parts in cars today are largely ethanol proof, but you might consider upgrading any flex hoses and fitting a good prefilter to the initial fuel point (somewhere before the fuel rail).

The bottom line is that on straight E85 you are going to have to flow roughly 40 percent more fuel, and the fuel/air ratio curves are going to be different. If you can fit an E85 sensor compatible ECM and the sensor and retain a factory harness, and somewhat larger injectors and come up with an appropriate map, you are okay. Otherwise you are going to have to use an aftermarket ECM and probably again different injectors. One conversion for VWs kept the Digifant EFI and added a GM TBI unit that ran either gas or ethanol simply by enabling or disabling the TBI injectors.

If you are going to run straight E85 all the time, a quick fix might be to get the engine running open loop and put in injectors that will flow 40% more than the stock ones. Many domestic and foreign ECMs have "secret" open loop modes for vehicles sold in leaded fuel markets which can't use a cat or O2 sensor.

Converting to an aftermarket mechanical FI or, Ghod forbid, a carb makes the whole thing simple: just jet appropriately.

Problems include: if you move to a inspection/IM state, sell the vehicle, or they quit selling E85 you need to convert back. And economics: E85 is no cheaper by heat value!

Easiest cheapest way to run E85 is buy a old simple motorcycle or VW Bug with a single carb you can rejet, replace all the rubber, slosh the tank and be good to go.

Actually is is a problem for plan metal parts because the alchol in E85 will react with them the same as water would basically hence the need for plastic, proper rubber or stainless steel fuel lines.

----------------- The SnoMan

None of the racing cars running methanol used stainless fuel lines, and I don't think E85 factory cars do either. Actually stainless steel is a poor choice for fuel lines for reasons known to anyone with P&W or GE jet engine experience.

I wouldn't worry about ethanol too much in terms of materials compatibility on modern cars. Methanol is a different issue.

Big differenc between a racing car that sees litle usage and lot of overhauls and a daily driver. It will corroed plain steel lines with time. Just look at the metal fuel lines on a E85 car and you will see because Detriot would not waste money on SS fuel lines if it was not needed.

----------------- The SnoMan

After looking over the following data, I've concluded that E85 EXISTS only so that the current bureaucratic slimeballs of stupidity can claim that "They are doing SOMETHING..." (when the current unsustainable situation is just fine with congress and the PREZ & the big oil connections)

Your vehicle would burn SO much more E85 than straight gasoline, that you'd save money by spending $3 per gallon of gasoline than spending $2.50 per gallon for E85! Lets suppose your car gets 25mpg driving to work and back every day. At $3 per gallon, that's 12 cents per mile. Your 25mpg car MIGHT get something like 20mpg on E85. At $2.50 per gallon, that's 12.5 cents per mile. So 10,000 miles later you'll have spent $1200 on gasoline or $1250 on E85. You havent saved SQUAT. (and the 20mpg on E85 in a car that otherwise would get 25mpg on gasoline - that might be with a tailwind mostly going downhill)

For E85 to be cost effective, it would have about 2/3 (or less) of the price of gasoline.

-WaV

There is no doubt much truth in that statement. But none of that would matter if there were a clamor from consumers for an alternative, so I blame us consumers more than I blame the politicians. :)

You have found out the truth. I expect people in dark suits wearing dark sunglasses will be arriving soon. They might referrer to you as "Mr. Anderson", but they really want you. Should have taken the blue pill.

Face the truth. Recycling plastic bottles causes higher oil/energy costs and more air pollution, since it takes a lot of energy to reduce them back to raw material. Yet we do it.

Using products made from recycled plastics, verses virgin plastics, costs more. To environment, to the manufacturer, and to the consumer. Yet we do it.

Knowledge, education, and understanding is not the fuel for change. Personal feelings, and being indoctrinated into the system, makes for change. Special interest groups run this country, and like the Soviets of the 90's - < 10% of the people impose their will on 100% of us.

Expect E85 imposed as an option, and expect the yearly costs for using gasoline to be adjusted up( via taxes, regulation, etc) to force E85 to be the cheaper fuel.

Wow, I've turned very cynical in my old age. ;)

imho,

tom

WaVy, check out

they sell a conversion for most fuel injected vehiclesits a bit pricey, but I am going to try it .just need to figure out how to unplug my injectors to match the plugs with their kit [this is my first fi car].it also comes with fuel system conditioner and oil treatment to get your engine ready for E85. Ned

1996 sl2, 5sp

OOp's, missed that you had already found the flextek site. The flextek people say you only lose 2 or 3 mpg, but the real issue as you said is cost effectiveness. There seems like there will be a break in price in the next 2 years.

this is a good article and not the only one I have read that talks about new cellulosic ethanol plants being built and the price of ethanol dropping.

I for one like the idea of my fuel money staying in the Americas.

Also if you have a good supply of E85 handy, I have 2 stations localy, you could modify your engine to take advantage of E85's 105 octane. Running 10:1 compression should bring your mpg back up.