I'm the Cause of Secret Serial Number Debate

I think Allen has pretty much summed up the essence of the Newsgroup here Good Luck on your search. Let me know if I can help out. I do know of a

64 R2 4 speed Hawk in Phoenix but I do not know if the present owner would sell it. I have followed it in Tucson then Phoenix over the past 20 years and turned down a chance to buy it 15 years ago for $3,000.

Bob Miles

I guess all those who have done a rusted out/bent frame swap are in trouble... and should have parted out that vehicle rather than put a non-number matching frame underneath it. When I get to this level of paranoia, I'll resolve it by buying something off the showroom floor. Bring all of your sale paperwork, if asked about the frame number... tell him you don't know what he's talking about. If you're sweating and acting like you've got the car packed with heroin... prepare for the strip search. Or, have it transported by trucking company across the border.

Where do I register my pedigree'd purebred Hawk? I don't want it to be thought of as a mutt.

I disagree with the heart of the vehicle starting at the frame. I've seen airplane restorations where the only original part on the aircraft was the data plate. If they replace only the original wing spar, is it a "fake" aircraft? Try and find a frame number on a vehicle in the rust belt... unless it is under a half-inch of undercoating or grease it's probably gone.

Lee (there are those black helicopters again...)

I could not agree more. On the car I saved, the frame was rusted and crunched in the hurricane, no secret number visible anyway. It's "heart" had stopped, and I chose a transplant over parting out the car. I could have repaired the rusty frame, restamped the "secret serial" numbers on the nasty frame and swapped it for the rust free frame on the donor and built a lesser car. I will finish the car, document it with the Jet Thrust registry and sell it on ebay as planned. I checked with the MVA and I can restamp the missing numbers on the good frame since I can prove ownership of both the car and the donor frame. I need to learn to stop offering cars to the NG, I lose money and gain grief. Here's the heart I should have saved I guess:

Lee Aanderud wrote:

Hello group, I'm a complete novice at this sort of stuff, but I agree with Lee about what makes for an "original". I have always wondered what constituted a "clone" or how they date a replica car like all of the Cobras out there. I have a very good friend that built a Cobra replica about 5 years ago with all new parts. The engine was a crate Winsor something-or-other (not a 427). The block was cast in 1972 and had been in the crate since then. After putting the kit together with its tubular frame, (all of these parts circa 2000), he went to get the car licienced and it was, as a 1964 Cobra!!! Thus, the car only had to comply with the state of Texas 1964 standards, so no emission issues. How does that happen???

Here's is a silly question for the group, if this rear cross member with the secret stamping is removed (cut off) the trashed original frame and grafted (properly welded) on to the "newer" similar frame, would anyone be able to know or would anyone care??? I have a '56 Sky Hawk in great shape, but years ago, someone mentioned to me to always be on the look out for a good, beefier '63 or '64 frame if ever my original 1956 frame fatigues. They said that the cross-members would have to be swapped out but that the "newer" frame would make the car better since these later frame were of high gauge metal and don't allow for so much sag. What would the group think of this? Thanks, Don C.

It's kind of an odd thing, how some pieces of iron when attached to a certain number become worth more than those that don't have the number. I sympathise with the guy who wants to own the 'real' thing, and JP is right also. There certainly isn't anything wrong with replacing worn or damaged parts on a car! Ultimately the value of the car lies in its special equipment, condition and the fact that very few of those left the factory that way. If Studebaker had made tens of thousands of R2 cars would they be worth a premium? I think the most valuable car would be the most original one in the best condition with the most special equipment. After that, all the other ones would have to get in line with decending values. Having the original frame with the correct numbers is one thing, having a genuine factory R2 but with mixed up numbers is another, and having a clone is something different again. It makes sense to me that anyone purchasing one of these cars will want to clarify just where on the 'value train' that car will land. The problem is that it isn't always possible to document every aspect that goes into determining value. Tim K.

John Poulos wrote:

I don't think that heart is any of the metal. The 'heart' is the number in the JT Registry and whatever bits of metal that can be verified to be with it, is what goes together to make the car and help establish the value. The fact that you can legitemately link the serial number to parts of the car is what makes it unique. The uniqueness coupled with desireablility is what determines the value. Tim K.

John Poulos wrote:

I think everyone who buys/sells/restores cars can be divided into two groups, lumpers and splitters. Lumpers will look at the big picture and not be too concerned about specific numbers as long as the authenticity is there in a general way they will be happy. Splitters want to have every i dotted and t crossed in their quest for unassailable authenticity. Personally I can't imagine a customs guy in the know enough to be aware that Studebakers have 'secret' serial numbers. And what would they do if there was NONE there? Also, especially considering the current values, I don't think all this dithering about numbers makes a big difference in the final price/value. Tim K.

John Poulos wrote:

Since we are picking nits here, I will point out that I did not directly tell you to go soak the rope. I was not responding to you, I was responding to John. I told John what I would do, and what he did with the information is up to him.

I went to Google in an effort to obtain the assigned number for that original message for verification purposes, but was unable to locate it. I'm sure there is a way, as I have seen messages with assigned numbers before. I tried, but felt that further searching for such a number would be a waste of my time. The post is there, and it represents quite clearly what I am saying, even without the assigned number.

That is my general attitude regarding the subject, but I do recognize there are exceptions. In your case, you have concerns which, in your perception, are real. Since perception is reality, so are your concerns... to you. Since you are the one considering buying the car, knock yourself out!

JT would like to mate the original engine back to his car, and it appears by a stroke of luck that he will not only be able to do that, but also manage to get the engine currently resting in his car back into its original chassis. I say that's cool, and I'm happy that the hidden (not really "secret") serial numbers helped him towards that goal. He speculates that might enhance the monetary value of both cars, and perhaps he is right. Whether it does or not, I'm truly pleased for JT!

If I had a car for sale, and a perspective buyer was to insist on verifying the hidden serial number, I guess I would make an effort to check it out for him. The cost would be $25 an hour, plus mileage to and from the lift, plus lift time, any materials, radars, X-ray machines, special technicians, etc. required to verify the number. In the event the number, for what ever reason, is unobtainable, double the price.

I found it, I can sleep tonight!

news:e827c$449202a6$42d21549$ snipped-for-privacy@provalue.allthenewsgroups.com

Really, let's not take ourselves, our cars, or the banter here too seriously. Much of what is said is tongue in cheek, not intended to be personal.

Hmm, well if you ever run into a good rust-free '64 Hawk with R1/Air in the Tucson/PHX area I would like to know. AFAIK there are none in the ELP area, and the only ones I knew about in ABQ were imported from other areas of the country.

If you found all the parts to make up a Piper J-3, the FAA would classify it Experimetal, but if you had the Builders Plate from a J-3, you could build anything aroud it and fly it as a J-3............ well sort of. But basically that plate is the most important part of the plane.

BG

When we sold the J-3 it was more duct tape than fabric on the leading edges of the right wing,

I've seen

snip

And that's where you can get between the rock and hard place. Someone who pays top dollar for a package car may well insist that the numbers match (no matter how they got there)...

The daily driver/fun cars offer more latitude but then there's that always nagging thing about an over zealous law enforcement type.

Numbers shmumbers...

JT

(Who can hardly ever find a car with a good title..)

snip

Heh!

Moot point Mr. Lester as you don't have any "original" cars!

JT

Sorry, not worth it to me to look. If the vin, engine number and options match the title, I'll buy the car. I never looked, never even knew it exsisted until I was told on here. Sold like 400 Studebakers so far without looking, not going to start now. (OK, the package car has been with the same owner since 67, so it's not that much of a risk to not look. If I can't read it, I'll shoot it in the head )

Grumpy AuC>

I would express my views on that, but don't want to offend anybody.

Not at this time, but there have been some nice ones pass through here, and may be more.