I'm the Cause of Secret Serial Number Debate

Well, I'm the dufus that mentioned the "secret serial number" to Allen. I sure did not intend that, by so doing, I'd screw up any potential deal between them. I feel very badly about this. As far as I'm concerned. the GT in question is an authentic car, because it has been rebuilt with CORRECT parts, if not necessarily all of its ORIGINAL parts. And we all know that, when it comes to judging, "original" doesn't get you squat. It's got to be both authentic AND in ++showroom condition to score a trophy.

If the Jet Thrust registry accepts this car as genuine, then that's jake with me.

Just for sh*ts and grins, I just did a Dopgpile search for "studebaker serial number". Here's hit no. 11, on the first page:

"Studebaker Drivers Club - Secret serial number location. ... All Forums. Your Studebaker Forum. Technical Talk. Secret serial number location. New Topic Reply to Topic ... this practice went) had their serial number stamped into a frame cross-mem...

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[Found on Yahoo! Search] "

If I can pull it up with a few keystrokes, that means any customs or DMV flunky can do the same. And I KNOW that Canada Customs have Internet-connected computers right on the counter. When I returned to Canada last April with a '64 Daytona bought on eBay, the Customs agent questioned the declared value. I used his terminal to log into my eBay page and showed him the completed auction. End of problem. In THAT instance.

I just tried, via e-mail to indicate to Allen, that the "secret serial number" could POTENTIALLY be a source of grief at the border or DMV, given the bureaucratic mindset. No way did I try to imply that the car was less than authentic because an obscure stamping, basically used by the factory for its own purposes, was either not present or in conflict with the data plate. I suggested merely that Allen should get his ducks in a row with respect to this issue. That could be accomplished by obliterating any SSN not in agreement with the serial plate, or by changing it to agree (risky, IMHO, because of said bureaucratic mindset), or by simply documenting the frame swap. The last solution is undoubtedly the best.

You have to remember that this is primarily an issue affecting vehicles sold across the border. For a Canadian buying as U.S. car, there are THREE hoops to jump through:

  1. clear it out of the USA, basically to ensure it's not on a hot car list
  2. get it through Canada Customs
  3. get it legally registered with the provincial DMV.

At any one of these steps, if the bureacrat involved THINKS there is anything fishy about the serial numbers, you're going to have grief. The car could be seized, or worse.

The whole intent of my e-mail to Allen was to warn him about potential pitfalls with the bureaucratic process, and how to take steps to ensure their avoidance. I certainly did not intend to warn him away from buying that particular car, or from dealing with JP in general. Quite the contrary, in fact.

This is not the outcome I wanted to see. I would have liked to see Al buy the car from JP, because I'm sure Al would get a sweetheart of a car at good price.

I guess I should have said nothing, eh? Suppose I had. Al buys the car from JP, ships it home, and gets into some interminable hassle because some dillweed DMV inspector finds a contrary number on the frame? Could wind up sowing a lot of hate and discontent between two folks I like and respect. In the interest of preventing that, I said what I said.

Sometimes you just can't win for losing. In any case, I tender my apologies to both Allen Anderson and to John Poulos for all the distress this has caused. That's not what I wanted to happen.

Gord Richmond (feeling like the bull in the china shop, now)

Reply to
Gordon Richmond
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Gord. I will say you were in the right 100% for bringing up the secret serial number. This is especially true as you mentioned, how it can come up at Customs, and it is better to be safe than sorry.

What has happened, is some here have things THEY wish to keep secret, not you, Allen, or JP!

Craig.

Reply to
Craig Parslow

You've been in my china closet before, and you are welcome back anytime!

Don't beat yourself up, Gord. If this particular deal does not go through, Allen will find the car of his dreams, and JP/his car will fulfill somebody else's dream. In the big scheme of things, this is no big deal. Like gas, it will pass.

You should never feel remorse for doing what you think is the right thing, and I don't think anybody will argue what you did was, "wrong."

I remember a lesson I learned during a leadership seminar some time ago. The theme was, "Managers do things right, leaders do the right thing."

You did the right thing, JP is doing the right thing, and so is Allen, based on what each person's moral compass dictates.

I'm sorry I threw fuel on the flames, but that is my nature, as I seldom know what is either the right thing, or how to do anything right. I try, though. As has often been said, "Dave is very trying."

Let's lighten up, this is supposed to be fun!

Reply to
Dave's Place

Name them.

Reply to
Dave's Place

You tell me! Why would anyone be called an a**hole, or be told to "piss up a rope" for being concerned about something that is an integral part of a vehicle, and can be legally used in a court of law as a source of evidence of misrepresentation, or in the worst case, theft? This is especially true as Gord mentioned of selling a car out of the country.

Craig.

Reply to
Craig Parslow

No, YOU made the accusation, YOU tell ME who, "Has something to hide."

There may be a difference in opinion as to the importance of hidden serial numbers in one case as related to another, but your comment indicated that someone here had something, "To keep secret," to the detriment of some other innocent party. That implies dishonesty on somebody's part, and since you made that implication, I think you should step up to the plate and follow through on your innuendo... or, retract it.

Reply to
Dave's Place

I reckon, in the event that the hidden serial number was obtainable, but somehow different that anticipated, I would discount the price of the search.

Reply to
Dave's Place

A couple of newsgroupers here got mighty defensive on the last post and this post on the Secret Serial number issue. That is why I am curious to know if someone has something to keep secret.

Is someone afraid SDC is going the way of the Mopar boys, and the genuine documented R-series prices are now going to be out of reach of them?

If someone intends to buy an R-series car from another party, are they going to be up-front and mention there was a frame, body, or engine swap when prompted?

Absolutely NO ONE should be called derogatory names, or told to 'piss up a rope' over a definite Stude-related subject as this one!!

Craig

Reply to
Craig Parslow

OK, I have to ask this question. I've been doing this for over 45 years, 2 or 3 since I heard about the frame number. I was told it was lightly stamped by the factory to ID the frame. They did not do it on trucks, nor Avanti's, nor on replacement frames as far as I know. Has anyone gone to the MVA and had to drop the rear valance to look for the this now integral part of the car and know what happened when it's not visible because of rust or replacement ? I know the gal at the MD MVA had no idea what I was talking about when I asked her about the GT but finally got her to agree to have the trooper inspect my replacement frame if I restamp it.

I agree the buyer has the right to pass on a car for any reason and I hope he finds a car he's comfortable with, but we've been discussing how I saved the car in the open on here for weeks. I got so wrapped up in the thread that I actually called Lee D. to ask if he still had the factory frame off the car so he could look for the number again and he just laughed at me. He scrapped it months ago, and Lee never throws anything away if it has any value. That frame was a rusted mass, I couldn't save the rear X member and move it over as some have suggested even if the damn number was still there.

Craig Parslow wrote:

Reply to
John Poulos

Craig you could be right, but who's to know. If I wanted, I could have rebuilt the car, not mentioned how I did it on the NG and no one would be the wiser, but I choose to share the restoration process. It's no secret that many of the restored Jet Thrust cars started with a vin, a body tag and correct engine and all the usable parts from a rough car. We may disagree about how many bits make it a real car, but IMHO, if you are rebuilding a existing car you have title to, you are doing a restoration. I choose to be up front about the restoration process, but I can't be sure what the next owner, or for that matter the previous would or did do. There may well be cars out there that were build from scratch into a fake R series, one SDC'er makes new body tags to replace "lost" ones. With prices moving to up and up, shit is going to happen.I was offered a R2 Lark barn car in worse shape then the R2 Daytona I bought for $1200 a few years back and passed on it. The guy was asking 10K, but let it go for 8 and it was a shit box.

Craig Parslow wrote:

Reply to
John Poulos

very badly

parts. And we

It's got to be

location. New

into a frame

flunky can do the

my eBay page

mindset. No

in conflict

in agreement

fishy about

certainly did not

car from JP,

both Allen

what I wanted

No bull heeyah... Very well stated Gord.

JT

Reply to
Grumpy AuContraire

I apologize for my rope statement. I think it was taken too seriously, and it was not intended as a direct, personal affront to the fellow that started this thread. It was wrong nevertheless, so I apologize.

"Curiosity," aside, I still feel that your comment implied specific dishonesty, but I will defer to your explanation of your intent.

I will either back up my statements, or apologize for them when I screw up. I'm still not satisfied that you have done so, but I'll not push it any further. Your statement seemed to have direct, personal implications, rather than being a "what if," scenario.

I will close by saying that I have taken many lumps in the past for trying to make the point that derogatory name calling relating to folks that have a different view than others do not have a place on this forum, and I will join you in standing by that standard.

Reply to
Dave's Place

THANK YOU!

Two indivuals were hurt or insulted over this. What really bothers me over this is Allen Anderson is a 'newbie' here. I met Allen several years ago, and then fell out of touch for several years. He now wants to get back into Studedom and asked a legitimate question. He first used the newsgroup as an avenue to get in touch with some members of the previous chapter he was a member of, and made an inquiry regarding the purchase of a car. Instead of a warm reception, he received a hail of bullets. The last thing SDC needs is potetial lost membership due to the action of some. I agree we do take shots at each other here (and I will include myself),but we must remind ourselves some discretion and research is appropriate before making any smart ass remarks.

Craig

Reply to
Craig Parslow

Awww Dave...whyn't cha go an pissup a rope? Might be fun to video the feat for a tv segment.

Reply to
Loy Daniel

can do the

in agreement

certainly did not

car from JP,

what I wanted

Reply to
Studebaker-r2-4-me via CarKB.c

Reply to
John Poulos

Reply to
Studebaker-r2-4-me via CarKB.c

very badly

parts. And we

It's got to be

location. New

into a frame

flunky can do the

my eBay page

mindset. No

in conflict

in agreement

fishy about

certainly did not

car from JP,

both Allen

what I wanted

Reply to
John Poulos

But here is a answer you posted on the subject of Avanti secret serial numbers. "From: John Poulos - view profile Date: Thurs, Apr 20 2006 6:16 pm Email: John Poulos Groups: alt.autos.studebaker Not yet ratedRating: show options

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I was just wanting to know if that is the location. here in Kansas, if you mess with any of the numbers , that means you have to start with a rebuilders title period. Malcom

Reply to
Malcom Gillette

Well, I did say "as far as I know" I may have screwed up back then, the guy never did find it on his Avanti where I thought he should look, although it's a high rust area. I either found that info somewhere, or repeated what I heard. Maybe Avanti's had a number, but since the vin was on a plate on the frame, I don't know why they would. I also read that trucks did not, but I could be mistaken. Look at your Avanti and see if you can find it and get back to us. If it's rusted away, I guess you're still OK, since the tin worms messed with it, not you. Makes me wonder what they did with Avanti II's after sandblasting half the frame away to get rid of rust. Ti be clear, I've never actually looked for or saw a Avanti secret serial number in case someone thinks I'm a expert on such things and does a Google history search like you did.

Malcom Gillette wrote:

Reply to
John Poulos

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