other running complete 59 into the incredable hulk (what is left of the
100,000th) and probably never sell it. I sure the museam would accept
the car and all the documents if it is restored or refurbished and
looks good. I am going to go down to 2 cars period. I have a 52
Commander 4 door, 64 fixed roof V8/FOM runner titled but needs mucho,
the two 59's and a 56 Packard Executive 2 door hardtop. The 52 still
has original interior gray color and parts and engine turns over.
Anyone wants it for $1,000 let me know. 64 wagon $500. The two 59
wagons $2,500. I am gonna keep the Packard and which ever car does not
sell (probably the 100,000th and running parts wagon) All serial
numbers match the secret number on the back crossmember on the frame.
That means that this post is #50! Prize please!!
Bob, I would restore the 100,000 Lark also to the best of my ability if
I owned it. It is certainly a significant car!! I have noticed over
the years that when cars are given to the museum, they do not always
keep them. One year in South Bend they auctioned a bunch of them off.
bob m wrote:
It is one's wallet that is doing the 'thinking' about that. JP already
mentioned in a previous post about the difference between a genuine R-series
car versus one that has been properly cloned. And going by previous history
(and the dreaded BJ auction) of ALL numbers matching brand-X's, the
difference is becoming greater, and you can bet Studebaker is not far
behind. We can credit (or fault) the PBW and the Stude Tomato with the
excellent latter day press coverage for proving that Studebaker made a
genuine muscle car able to compete with the Big Three. (Too bad it took 40
years for Studebaker to get recognized as being a true muscle car contender;
they really needed those sales in late '63!) On one hand, we give credit
for these owners of cars to prove it on the track up against Yenko Comaros,
and laud the excellent press coverage in MCR, et al, but now we are pissing
and moaning about values climbing on genuine R-series cars over 'clones'???
What the hell do you expect? The 'win on Sunday, sell on Monday' line is
going to apply; even in the 'used' muscle car market!! Since you can't
exactly order one brand new, you have to find a 'real' one, and that takes
diligent searching, and 'buyer beware'-type research when you do find a
potential candidate. When one parts with that sum of $$, of course he wants
a 'guarantee' of authenticity! So of course available resources are going
to be tapped, including Production Orders, serial numbers (both the A-pillar
plate and the secret #), and the engine number. The values of matching
number versus non-matching number cars speak, especially when production
figures are very low. One has to always keep in mind, it is the market that
has come up with this standard; not Studebaker owners.
Well the reason I want to know where the secret serial number is that I have
an Avanti with a Oklahoma rebuilders title. Well the original numbers that
where on the front frame rail are gone. And in Oklahoma it was OK to stamp
the number in the door of the fiberglass body. I can just see Kansas Highway
patrol when they do their out of state vehicle inspection and all I have is
a few pieces of non descript Oklahoma paperwork. It would really be nice to
be able to point to the secret serial number when they ask "What else have
By the way it is located on the X member of a Avanti?
I looked before but haven't tried the sandpaper trick.
I haven't a clue. The crossmember where it was stamped on a "normal"
Studebaker doesn't exist on an Avanti (replaced by the tubular thing.)
If you get an answer I'd kind of like to know, just out of curiosity.
Malcom Gillette wrote:
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
The Federal government began mandating multiple number stamping (secret
numbers) in '68 and even with that there are numerous instances of
misstamped and missing numbers on unmolested cars.
If the factories couldn't manage 100% compliance with number stamping under
the threat of Federal fines, imagine what it was like with no government
Collision damage early in the car's life is another issue, a frame component
properly replaced years ago with a parts room part could be hard to spot.
Well, as I said, you could order frames from the factory and they would
be blank, never saw anything about stamping them like they do the
To to show how fast and loose they were 40 years ago, look at this
build sheet from the factory. Makes me wonder what they did with the
frame on this Avanti and did the buyer know the history. It was built in
early 62, converted to 64 styling, titled as a 63 and sold new in mid
64. Put that in your X ray machine and try and figure it out. Is it one
of the last Avanti's built, one of the first, or both.
John Kunkel wrote:
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
Today, that would be totally illegal to 'update' a previous year's car
and sell it as a current year model. The FTC clamped down on that
years ago, as did the NHSTA which came out with a new set of rules
every year which most all the automakers had to abide to including the
month and year of manufacture on the data plate. (Some smaller
companies such as Avanti and Checker did get exemptions, but the date
of manufacture was still on the plate). And then later, the EPA had
their yearly standards, so it be next to impossible now to get away
with it. One thing I do remember from around 1986 was when Chrysler
sold a large batch of (same year) K-cars as 'brand new' when in fact
they had many testing miles racked up on them. It was later revealed
they had their speedometers disconnected until the it was time to
deliver them to the dealers. There were full 1-page newspaper ads that
appeared not long after with Lee Iacocca's picture and a huge "I'm
sorry" at the top with is apology below it promising never to do it
FWIW, KF changed left-over 1950 Frazers with a new doghouse to get the
They may have even used 1950 Kaisers, too.
Joe Frazer was kicked out about this time, too. IIRC.
Yes, that was true with Kaiser-Frazer. The Studebaker 2R salesman's
book reads "any new 2R truck sold after November 15th shall be titled
as the following year's model". This would include a truck that may
have sat on a dealer's lot for months and months. Then there were some
reserialized '62 Diesels that were sold as 1964's...
For Avantis - Studebaker Service Letter G-1964-3 states; "...for
registration purposes only, effective September 1, 1963 and until
further notice, all new and unused Avanti models when first sold at
retail and which are licensed or titled for the first time, will carry
the registration year designation of 1964." This has led to many
Avantis that should be considered to be 1963s titled as 1964s.
Oh, Lord! Kaiser-Frazer retitled everything! Studebaker was a piker in
comparison. Of course, the business with trucks was straightforward, in that
they just didn't change from year to year.
Leftover 49 Kaisers and Frazers became 1950 models with a re-stamp.
In 51, the last year for the old-body cars ("slab siders") and last year for
Frazers, left over bodies--including Kaisers--became Frazers, which is why
for one year only Frazer came in the hatchback utility model, Vagabond which
had been a Kaiser only body for 49 (and 50)
Then, in the new series of Kaisers in 51 and new for 51 Henry J, left over
cars at the end of the year were fitted out with continental tire kits and
other stuff, and sold as 52 Vagabonds, as compared to real 1952s which
looked different with newer taillights etc
Then in 1954, the left over 53s were repainted--after the 54 taillights and
fronts were put on, they had to be as it didn't quite match up--and became
54 (early) Specials. When they sold these, later on there were real 1954s
with the three piece rear windows and 54 interiors, called 54 (late)
Specials. The Supercharged Manhattans were true 54s from the get go--until
55, then a hood chrome piece was changed to make them 1955...
Jim Bartley on PEI
86 & 87 Peugeot 505
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