1987 GL noisy valves

It is a very common problem in the EA82 engine.

The good news is that it almost always is very easy to fix. IOW - you may be getting a bargain by taking a small risk and fixing the problem fairly easily and cheaply. Also good news is that the lifter clatter is not doing any significant damage to the engine, so once you get it fixed, it's like it never happened, except you got a good price (like they say, knowledge is power).

The bad news is that there are several common causes for the problem in this engine, and it can be trial and error determining which one you need to focus on and solve.

Caution: Don't be fooled by well meaning people who will tell you it has to be "this" or has to be "that" (IOW - only one cause and only one solution). I've been hanging out on Subaru forums for a few years, and have seen just as many success stories for one solution as the other, and just as many disappointments when a particular solution didn't work as for the other solution.

I recommend reading this very good web page:

- it will give you some very good insight. Cameron covers these possibilities:

1) Oil pump worn. 2) Oil pump gaskets leaking air. 3) Bad o-ring between the cam case and head (one per head). 4) Dirty/clogged lifter(s).

One place that Cameron didn't mention is the oil pressure relief valves

- one in each head. Some people have actually fixed the problem by removing the cam cover (just the cover - not the whole case) and the oil tube called a "banjo tube" for reasons that will be obvious when you see it - it has the approximate shape of a banjo), and taking the pressure relief valve apart and cleaning it and replacing the spring (available at your Subaru dealer for a coupla bucks). A piece of trash can get in the seat of the relief valve and/or the spring may be weak from fatique/heat.

A good approach would be to toss a coin (or go with your gut feel), and either replace the oil pump and its two seals (a large o-ring and a "mickey mouse" gasket - called that because it looks like MM's head)

**OR** attack the valve train area (i.e., remove the cam case and clean the lifters and pressure relief valve, and replace the relief valve spring and the cam case-to-head o-ring). You have a 50-50 chance of fixing the problem doing one or the other. If no joy, then do the other and problem will be resolved - I almost guarantee it. 8^)

Some miscellaneous comments:

1) The problem can be brought on by switching suddenly to synthetic oil at high mileage (due to its very high inherent detergent properties and quick release of crankcase residue into the lube system). This happened to me in my '86 with the same engine. You might ask the owner if he chanegd to synthetic oil or did a crankcase flush, which can also cause it for the same reasons. If his answer is "yes", then - it's a no-brainer - attack the pressure relief valves and the lifters (dirt in one or both). If the answer is "no" or ambiguous, then you haven't lost anything by asking - it will still be a roll of the dice to choose your direction. 2) Some people have successfully resolved the problem by what I call the "non-invasive" method of cleaning the lifters and pressure relief valves. It involves changing back to dino oil if synthetic is in there now, and putting 1/4 to 1/2 qt. of Marvel Mystery oil (I understand Sea Foam works as well) in the crankcase and leaving it in. Change oil and filter at 1000 miles, and refill agian with oil and 1/4 to 1/2 qt. of MMO. Then change oil and filter without fail every 3000 miles. This method takes longer (maybe months), and is not guaranteed to work if that's not the problem - but there's no damage beign done while the clatter continues. The advantage of this method is that it involves an absolute minimum of effort and time (again - if it works - it did for me and occasionally for others depending on the cause of the problem in that particular engine). The advantage of Cameron's "invasive" method is that it gives instant gratification (if that was the problem). 3) If you go the oil pump area route, you have a good chance of success simply by replacing the oil pump seals and staying with the existing pump to save costs. There are many that claim the the pump itself is rarely the problem - that it is much more likely just the pump seals (o-ring, MM gasket, and shaft seal, which is replacable). My philosophy is this: Since you probably do not know if the pump was ever replaced, you should go ahead and replace it this time. It's a bit of work to get in there for the seals. It would be a shame to expend the labor for just the seals, and then determine that the pump itself is bad and have to go in again to replace it. IIRC, you should be able to get an aftermarket pump for $60-100U.S.

I'm curious why a car with that age has only 104k on it. Perhaps it hasn't been run enough (long enough and hot enough) to keep the lube system clean. Perhaps with such low useage, the owner has neglected oil changes. This may be a clue that a controlled cleanout with MMO will do the trick. On the other hand, with that age (even though low mileage), it's easy to imagine that the oil pump seals have shrunk and are the problem. You have to make that decision. (Of course there's always the possibility that the owner disconnected the speedo during a good part of the car's life.)

If you would enjoy getting the bargain price that you seem to feel you are getting, and you feel like investing the time in fixing it (which I do believe you can, using the above info.), you might ought to go for it. However, if you can't afford the time to give the car the required one-time TLC it needs to resolve this problem, then you probably ought to pass on it. Again - your decision. Keep in mind also that you could get it and do nothing, and she would just be driving a car with noisy lifters but no added damage (or put MMO in it and possibly fix the problem for next to nothing - if that doesn't work, you're only out the cost of the MMO and otherwise no worse off).

HTH

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

Tony, If the seller would go for it, you could try the remedy outlined over at USMB -

may have to ask or look around in the archives but some folks had great success at loosening up hyros with some kinda oil additive/flush procedure. Tell the guy if it fixes the car you'll buy it ,if not, he should pay for (at least half?) the cost of the procedure. If you live in a community that has emmisions testing you should also insist on a new sticker/test. Even if the one on the car is only 2-3 months old.fyi Carl

1 Lucky Texan

Anth> I have a chance to buy an 87 GL wagon (AT, 2WD) that has only 104k miles on

LOL! And chances are whatever you find on the ezBoard on the subject will have been authored by me. The procedure is what I described in my other post using MMO or Sea Foam (automatic transmission fluid also works). But like I said, the results aren't always immediate.

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

Thanx, I've book marked the page with the lifter info. This car is very clean inside and out but I don't want deal with replacing the engine. I do know what noisy lifters sound like and when the owner of the car told me it had valve noise, I figured it was ready to toss a rod but it sounds like lifters to me and it gets a little quieter after a minute or two.

It's too bad its a 2WD and AT, or I'd get it for myself.

I suspect the low miles are do to the age of the owners. I suspect they are in their 70's but they admitted that they bought it used 5 years ago. It's possible that there is odometer fraud involved. Anyway, I'll test drive it tomorrow and report back.

T> >

Actually Bill, I trhink either my NG server or my personal settings made it difficult for me to retrieve your prvious post. I hope you didn't think I was acusing you of not being helpful. I get 'article number not found' type errors occasionally and lately it seems some of my own posts don't show up in a timely fashion. As a new Subaru owner and new reader at USMB I can definitely see that a decent searchable data base would be handy. I am also trying to encourage folks to respond back when there question/problem is resolved as often there are multiple paths to try. This is the same as some other 'hobby' related newsletters and forums I monitor. If we ALL communicate then we all know everything!

Carl

1 Lucky Texan

Bill Putney wrote:

No problem.

I used to have big problems with messages having expired on NG's too. When I switched ISP's a year or so ago, the problems totally went away, so I think, at least in my case, it had to do with the quality of service from the ISP - maybe that's your problems too.

I too am all for feedback from original posters of a thread to let everyone know what the outcome of the problem was - as you say - we all learn that way. And it's nice to see a thank you posted to someone who gave useful advice.

I think a search feature on a forum or ng is important. Old hangers-on get tired of writing the same four or five paragraphs over and over and over again when the same problem keeps getting posted. Good search capability accomplishes at least two things: A newby can do a search and find the asnwer to a question that's already been asked (cuts down on traffic), and if a repeat question shows up, people can point them to the right answer with a one or two sentence reply. Everyone can then focus more on providing and receiving new information.

BTW - you do know about Google archiving the newsgroups? There is a delay of a day or so in stuff showing up, but it is complete and works well. The ""Advance Search" (of Groups) has some good features too. My earlier posts in this thread should be there by now if you want to take a look at them.

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

Hi,

If you decide to go with the car, please follow Bill's advice on pump seals and timing belts. Since you've gotta dive in a ways to do the pump seals, might as well get cam seals (both sides) and front crank main seal out of the way, too. All of these seals are prone to getting brittle with time and they WILL leak. (My Subie parts guy likes to joke Subies are designed to leak and they work perfectly just as designed!)

Also, many will advise you to go ahead and change out the water pump, too. Considering the age of the car, it's probably due. A few extra dollars ($60-80US?) and very little extra time. You've gotta do the same amount of work regardless of which of these jobs you take on, so save yourself a lot of extra time in the future by doing them all at once!

Another thing: hoses. Even if you don't change the water pump, install a new bypass hose, a little L-shaped guy about 3 or 4 inches long that comes off the pump. And look for a couple of tiny little water hoses on the top of the engine, one near the t-stat housing, the other behind the throttle body injector (assuming this is NOT a carburetted car) that you might otherwise mistake for vacuum or fuel lines. Change them for sure. Heater hoses and radiator hoses fill the rest of the bill.

Other things will come to mind, but these should get you started on the right path!

Good luck,

Rick