I have a 2000 Outback Wagon with approximately 83,000 miles. It has had the additive added to the cooling system per the recall and still experienced coolant seepage at the head gasket which was repaired under the recall warranty extension.
Now it is about 9 months and 11,000 miles later and the coolant is showing signs of oil contamination. Worst case is another head gasket problem or the shop just did such a sloppy job the first time around and caused the contamination.
I will be bringing it back in again for repair. Obviously the coolant system needs to be flushed, but what else should they do to clear up the problems?
The original leak was antifreeze to the outside of the engine. The contamination symptom would be oil and antifreeze getting together on the inside of the head gasket. Is a cylinder pressure test the proper diagnostic tool to verify this type of leakage?
My husband is a Subaru tech, and I was just browsing this NG and saw your post. First, the additive you're referring to is used for the headgasket recall, as you said, but my understanding is that it's only for internal HG leaks (between the cylinders/coolant) and not for leaks from the head to outside the block. The test for this includes the cylider pressure test, but can also include a test that checks for actual antifreeze residue in the emissions inside the block.
You said your initial problem was an external leak, which the additive probably fixed short-term. I doubt your technician screwed it up by using the additive, and they probably didn't do anything else to it - in other words, they didn't replace the gasket and reseal - they just used additive. That's Subaru's fix - if the additive appears to fix the problem don't do anything else. It's my understanding that with an external leak, they should have recommended a head gasket replacement (which I also understand is not covered under that recall because it is external, not internal), so they gave you the recall solution, which gave you a short-term fix at no cost, and gave you some more mileage.
Check with your service department to be sure that they didn't actually replace the gasket - it doesn't sound like they did. Either way, whether they did or did not, it is clear that with an internal leak you'll need the gasket replaced, and both the coolant and oil systems flushed. Also, while they're in there, if you haven't had your timing belt replaced, you might ask if it's a good idea to do it then, while the thing is apart since you're close to the 90K. I believe it should be covered under the recall extension because they've already used the additive, but I'm not an expert, or a service writer/manager so don't quote me on that. I hope this info helps a little.
One other unrelated note - I noticed your last name (couldn't help myself). My maiden name is Patnude, and I'm sure that somehow we're related. Originally Patenaude or Paternostre, descended from Pierre Patenaude and Catherine LaMonde from France then Quebec (c. 1690), then upstate NY, the name has travelled all over - Maine, Vermont, Washington, California... and changed into several variations (Patnude, Patnode, Patnaude, etc). If you have any other info or anyone in your family is interested in genealogy I'd be interested.
Again, hope this helps at least a little bit.
Take care,
Alyssa Mehl
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Patnaude" Newsgroups: alt.autos.subaru Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:50 AM Subject: 2K Outback, Second Head Gasket Problem ??
On the Subaru Side: Sequence of events 1. Recall and additive added to cooling system 2. Some time later, head gasket seepage repaired under recall extended warranty. Took them two days to repair and the heads were pulled. 3. 9 months since number 2, head gasket problems again. On the Patnaude side:
I am sure the family history is somewhat similar, we do refer to the French-Canadian origins, but my family has very little knowledge of it. I couldn't identify a Patnaude relative beyond my grandfather and he died at
60 years old more than 30 years ago. There is some speculation however that the correct spelling was Patenaude and that my grandfather removed the E only because a family friend made a sign for the house that was missing the E. My Patnaude's are primarily in the Providence/Warwick, RI area.
The only non-family Patnaude that I have ever meet uses the spelling Patneaude.
Dave
"Alyssa M" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:
Just to follow up on what is covered, I just spoke to my Subaru service manager. He states that the recall only covers external seepage of coolant. If I now have internal seepage that is not covered.
Last time only the drivers side was replaced. If this new seepage is also on the drivers side I may still be able to get it covered under the extended warranty since they have already had to work on that side.
Text of the recall: Certain 1999 through 2002 2.5L equipped vehicles may experience an external coolant leak at the head gaskets. As a precautionary measure, SOA is adding a special conditioner to the engine cooling system. This conditioner prevents leaks from occurring and corrects existing leaks. Only early Phase II 2.5 liter engines are affected. Phase I 2.5 liter engines (some 1999 model year and prior years) are not affected. Countermeasures applied to the manufacturing process for those 2002 and later VINS not affected by this campaign have eliminated the need for this campaign to be performed on those vehicles. In the future, it will be necessary to add Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner to the SUBARU vehicle cooling system whenever the engine coolant is replaced. If the vehicle owner has this repair performed promptly, Subaru will extend warranty coverage on cylinder head gasket external coolant leaks to a period of 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first. Warranty coverage begins on the date the vehicle was delivered to the first retail purchaser or on the date the vehicle was first placed in demo or rental service. The owner must have Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner added to the vehicle at any subsequent cooling system services at the interval specified in the Warranty and Maintenance Booklet under the heading ?Schedule of Inspection and Maintenance Services?. Resulting damage caused by a lack of maintenance or low coolant level will not be covered.
"Alyssa M" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:
if it's OBW you're on your own ( 2.5 DOHC engine) - sorry; moreover- these engine are prone to internal HG leak, which is way more serious, than external sepage ( of coolant , oil, or both); if it's Forester, you're sorta lucky - it was first MY w/ 2.5 SOHC engine, which should only develop external seepage; if you had your miracle glue added under Subaru recall, and your car has less, than
100K miles on odo - in a case it develops HG seepage, you are entitled to "free fix"; my 2000 OBW Ltd. w/125 k miles did have external sepage for about a year, and they aded "conditioner" when the car had over
100k on odo, so i'm not eligible for "free fix"; but even if Iwas, I wouldn't let' em tear my engine up because chance is high that Subie techs will screw up somewhere on the way and the "free fix" will in fact cost me a lot.... I drive my Subie w/ coolant and oil seepage and I just watch fluid levels ( oil/coolant loss is not dramatic and there is no oil contamination of coolant or coolant contamination of oil - things quite unlikely with external head leaks anyway); I advise everyone , whose Subie develops "external seepage" on HG to just keep on driving and just keeping an eye out on oil and coolant levels and on temp gauge on dashboard. Whole thing with "HG leaks" in 2.5 SOHC Subie engines are - in my opinion - just a hype, partly stirred up by Subie dealerships to make extra buck from SOA on repairs.... I LOVE MY OUTBACK ! heeee ha
A friend spells his name "Pattenaude" and his Dad says there's some French-Canadian in the background, so maybe another member of the tribe's been found?
I've got OBW...all of them are the problem engines?
At 115,000 miles I've just started getting some oil seepage somewhere, I think on the passenger side. not a drop on the ground in the garage, but I might have the oil level a bit higher than it should be.
If my oil is clean, and my coolant (in the radiator) is bright green, am I OK so far?
what is MY of your OBW ? Also, don't worry too much about "oil level too high" if your car is 2000 or younger - dipstick readings are sort of tricky - when you check oil level let your car sit on flat surface for about one hour, then read your oil level on BOTH SIDES OF DIPSTICK and take an average - that's what I do; also, if you has coolant infiltration into oil, your oil would look like milkshake ( wouldn't be clear ); oil seepage thru HGs on my 2000 OBW is " normal " during summer months, while coolant seepage is " normal " during winter season ( coolant seeps while you start your car in the morning and ambient temp is below freezing, then colloidal suspension of " coolant conditioner" dealer added to your system kicks in and there should be no leaks when engine is hot - just make sure you warm your engine up before you drive ); another thing : if you keep adding coolant because you think it's going down too fast - you also dilute concentration of conditioner, so make sure you get a bottle every couple years and pour it in; another bright side of coolant sepage thru HGs is that you don't have to flush and reload your cooling system - just add coolant periodically plus add conditioner every few years, and you are ready to roll... :) cheers
Andy - Impreza is like Outback : both made in Lafayette , IN plant; 2.5 SOHC engine was implemented for MY 2000 and on ( Forester is made in Japan and the implementation for US market was for some reason one year ahead ) hope it helps
sorry - my mistake; carl is right - they were and are made in Japan; so they follow Forester's pattern (i looked at the wrong column of a table ....) :)
To follow-up on JohnO's question, the recall says "certain 1999 through
2002 2.5L equipped vehicles." I still have a 99 OBW w/ a 2.5L, too. So...specifically which certain 1999 equipped 2.5L are subject to this recall? Anyone know? Also, when was the recall issued? I take mine to the dealer for service, it's now at 118K miles, and I'm not aware that the dealer ever added any special conditioner per the recall.
You can have an external oil and coolant leak as well as internal coolant leak. I know. I just had it happen and had it fixed on my '02 Impreza. My oil looked ok and coolant ok, visually. Be smart. Get a sample of your oil tested to be sure. I get mine done periodically at
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This is a very reliable lab and you willget a detailed report for your car. Coolant leaking into your oil may be subtle and not visible, but may still caue MAJOR damage. Test your oil. Be sure.
Uhhh, the standard repair is to replace BOTH head gaskets when there is a failure, even of just one side. If you only had one gasket replaced...well...time for a new dealership. Since your repair was less than one year ago, it should be covered under the standard service warranty of one year for parts and labor.
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