Do the Japanese or Germans make better cars?

These reports are interesting, but should be considered carefully as to their meaning.

"... more than 38,000 German vehicle owners were asked how satisfied they were with their car or SUV and the service"

The results do not represent how good, or bad, the cars are, but it represents how well they meet their owners expectations. Not exactly the same thing. It may well be that the results also reflect quality, but that should not be assumed.

If you read the article, it states that german vehicle owners were asked...

I wonder what the response would be if you asked american vehicle owners the same question? In Vancouver, I can't help but notice that asians drive a disproportionate amount of german and swedish cars.... mmmm do they know something we don't? My guess it's a "grass is greener" mentality.

Price?!?! It's easier to make a great car for $50,000 (i.e., German) than it is for $25,000 (i.e., Japanese). Moreover, it's easier to ignore minor quality problems in the $25,000 price range than it is in the $50,000 price range. In my mind, the survey is meaningless if they didn't vehicles in the same price range.

LK

What's a better car? Aside from size and cargo considerations: a) a car that is pleasant to drive b) a car that is reliable? c) a car that looks good? d) a car that is more affordable for the same features? e) all these answers are good.

The bug is that no car has "e" as an answer. The Legacy 2005 is a good step in this direction! Will it pass the "d"?

IMHO, european cars are stronger in "a", japanese cars are in "b", american cars try to be "d", and koreans are "d".

Every Volks owner that I know likes his car, but everyone also has a long list of troubles and repairs. The latest generations of Mercedes look very good. There's a dealer two blocks from my home. I see many new Mercedes being towed to the garage. German manufacturers don't admit that they make mistakes. The result is cars that exhibit the same trouble model after model. Remember the valve sleeves on the Rabbit? Oil consumption became a feature in a Volks. On Golfs, the manual said something like a quart of oil per 1000 miles was considered normal.

Honestly but I'd like to see a reliable car from one of the big three.

trebant is German

:)

Dependability

To Harry Wilke,

Asians who are not Japanese are the only ones who do not like to buy Japanese cars. Chinese, buy German cars because they still did not like what the Japanese did to them in WW2. Koreans do not like the Japanese at all. Alot of Asian countries do not get along together. Just because they are Asian doesn't mean they stick together and only buy Asian cars. That is just plain silly. Do you buy German cars just because they NOT Asian? I don't think so (I would hope not anyway).

To L.Kreh,

In Germany, a BMW or Mercedes does not cost $50,000 and a Japanese car cost $25,000. BMW's & Merc's are cheap in Germany, like GM, Ford etc are cheap in the US, so, when they compare a BMW to a Japanese car in Germany (with import duties and freight etc) the prices are similar (with the correct model). They use BMW's and Mercs as taxis in Germany they're so cheap.

Germans are renowned for making technologically advanced, safe, well made cars, but the Japanese have caught up. Look at the latest offerings from Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Subaru. I have just bought the NEW Outback H6 3.0R here in Oz. Superb car. This 3lt motor puts out 240+hp. This is standard level BMW type advancement for a motor of this size (not including the M3 of course which costs 3 times as much). The Liberty/Legacy GT (2lt turbo 240+hp) would compare with any BMW of twice the price here in Oz. I know as I've driven both extensively. Wheels magazine (Oz publication) said that "the Liberty/Legacy GT was possibly one of the best touring cars ever".

The perception of BMW's and Mercedes being the "best" cars is a legacy (no pun intended) left over from years ago when they WERE far superior to the Japanese or any other make of cars. This is no longer the case. The Japanese have caught up and now produce cars of equal or better quality for a cheaper price. Face facts and get over it!

The Asian community most prevalent in my part of the country (Texas) is mostly made up of 1st and 2nd generation Vietnamese, Laotian, Thai and some Cambodian and they GREATLY prefer high end Japanese (branded) cars

- Lexus and Toyota especially.

Carl

1 Lucky Texan

Lance B wrote:

Funny, when I visited Japan a few years ago, the Police drove Mercedes...They said they were built to last... Whereas the Japanese cars in general, were disposed of after 2 or so years... The government mandated inspection & emissions testing made it impractical to keep a vehicle over a few years old. I think it was something like, the 1st year, govt paid 100%, next year, they paid 75%, next year 50%, next 25%, next 0%, and by that time, 4-5k for inspections/testing was the norm.

2001 Jetta GLS automatic. Bought the car mainly because it appeared to be the heaviest car in it's group and the safety features. Last Thursday our daughter was broadsided on the drivers side by a 4 door Chevy Blazer.

Fortunately no one was hurt. Both she and the other young girl are okay. Rear right wheel bent, doors bent. Front and rear bumper covers ripped off. Three airbags deployed the car. She felt her head hit the side airbag that drops from the side/top. All she felt was a little pull from the seat belt.

The quality is okay, a few problems but nothing big.

The car did what it was supposed to do..she's fine.

We'll fix it and yes when the time comes, we'll buy another one. Nothing like success to get a happy customer!

That's why car dealers from New Zealand go to Japan, buy up 3 - 5 year old high spec cars with 50,000 - 100,000 km for next to nothing, bring them to NZ, sell them for mostly US$3k - US$6k, and we happily run our reliable & cheap used cars for another 100,000 - 150,000 km.

Thank you, Japanese Government!

-- Bruce

LB,

For the most part, you missed my point, which was that you'll get a different level of feedback from a customer that's critiquing a $25K car versus a $50K car. A survey that doesn't even the playing field by factoring in price is a pointless survey. That's it.

I didn't say "BMW and Mercedes are the best," much less that one class of cars is better than another. That's coming from you, not me.

-LK

No, I didn't miss the point. A Japanese car imported into Germany is thrust into a higher price bracket in comparison to the locally made product. A 318i BMW in Australia costs around AU$55,000 and a Subaru

2.5i Premium Liberty (Legacy)costs around AU$46,000. In Germany these prices would be reversed as the Liberty has higher import duty into Germany than Australia and the BMW has no import duty or any other taxes as it is made in Germany. Therefore the Subaru could concievably be more expensive than the BMW. This would apply to all levels of vehicles sold into Germany.

Now, when you say the customer is critiqing a $25,000 car to a $50,000 car it is more likely in Germany that the import is the dearer of the two. Further more, why would a customer be critiquing that level of difference in a car. Generally when people are purchasing/critiquing a car it is on the same cost basis. Why would anyone normally look at a $50,000 car when they can only afford a $25,000 car, or look at a $25,000 car when what they really want is a $50,000 car. I would even say that the survey would only critique cars of similar value in Germany.

So, my point is that, no one would critique a $25k car to a $50k car and when comparing cars IN GERMANY of the same value a car like the Liberty/Legacy would be of similar value to a BMW 318i and therefore the survey reflects that the Subaru has a better customer satisfaction result.

The prices certainly would be reversed.

According to the price list in the 2003 edition of Automobil Revue, the price of a BMW 318i in Germany is EUR 25,800. The Legacy 2.5 GX (the only 2.5 l Legacy sedan listed) is EUR 29,340.

Your post is absurd. Where are you getting this "318i BMW" versus "Subaru 2.5i Premium Liberty (Legacy)" argument? Obviously, as you've shown, if spend enough time at it, you can find a comparably priced BMW and Subaru in Germany. But this doesn't disprove my point. Indeed, these aren't the only cars compared in the survey. Porsche was compared to Subaru in the survey. Is that relevant? How about a relevant comparison between a 7 series BMW and a Subaru?

Newbie here...be kind.

They both make fabulous autos, but I do believe there is a difference in manufacturing philosophy depending on the culture. Just a theory (based mostly on personal experience with my own 96 Outback and my girlfriend's VW Cabrio, so it may or may not be way off base in the grand scheme of things.): In the past, the most I'd ever done on a car myself, outside of pump gas into it, is change an air filter....snap snap snap snap swap, reverse. When Pep Boys estimated $65 to replace a fuel filter on my OBW, I thought that was pretty absurd, so I decided to look into it and see just what kinds of things I can do for myself and save some $$$. Of course the filter was about 15 bucks and I could do it in about 10 minutes with the help of a Haynes and a few NG postings. Cool. I got it done for 1/4 the cost. In the last month I've gone from knowing nothing about this stuff to having swapped said fuel filter, changed my own oil and oil filter(sooooooo easy on the OBW. Didn't even have to jack it up. Can't believe I've wasted so much money the last oh so many years at Jiffy Screw etc.), replaced the PCV valve (OK...no biggy) and replaced the knock sensor. So, basically, I have done all that stuff to my car for about what it would have cost for Pep Boys to replace the fuel filter. I have discovered that, for the most part, I can maintain my Suby with the backside of a butter knife and a cotton swab.

Change scenes to my girlfriend's Cabrio:

Can't even get to the air filter to see if it needs to be changed, much less change it. A number of other things have to be removed just to get the housing open...unless you aren't too fond of your knuckles and weren't going to be using them anyway. Dealer or other mechanic has to do it. The more I looked into it, the more I realized how many other things are like that on her car. (Can't imagine what the cost would be. Dealer would most assuredly sell you an OEM filter and would probably charge for 1/2 hour labor....so, what, $50, $60, $70 to R/R an air filter?)

My understanding is that the Japanese design cars and other mechanical products to just last. You can do the maintenance if you must (and, of course, you should) but if you don't you'll get only slightly less life out of it. Germans seem to make autos and other products that need constant tweaking and maintenance by competent professionals. They will last and maintain peak performance if you do this. They will require expensive repairs if not. My owner's manual gives instruction about how to do a number of things yourself, including changing oil, drain/refill coolant, swap out light bulbs ... even align the headlights. Her manual says to have everything done by the dealer, even replacing headlight bulbs. They don't want you touching ANYTHING.

In the retail photo business I have discovered this to be true in 1 hour photo lab printers. Noritsu printers just go and go and are maintained very inexpensively. I've had employees fix them in the past with a hammer! Agfa printers require regular (expensive) maintenance, often requiring a $150/hour technician, and if it is not perforemd in a timely fashion, MAJOR repairs are due. You VILL pay!

Point is, since the Germans seem to make maintenance so difficult and expensive and, at a minimum, inconvenient, it might be done less often than needed, at which point reliability issues come into play. Plus, in a gogogo society, said inconvenience could affect overall satisfaction with the product.

My 2 cents....may not even be worth that....

I wouldn't give much merrit to a study or survey that puts Buick in the top 3 in dependability. We are talking about cars that spontaneously shut off on the highway, sometime spontaneously turning back on before you have to stop. We are talking about having to replace intake manifold gaskets that are leaking coolant into the engine. The list goes on. Aren't Acura, Honda, and Subaru much more dependable than that?