Engine ping/detonation - 2002 Outback H4 2.5 AT

Have you tried using a higher octane fuel? This will often times solve the ping problem which is caused by the fuel igniting before the piston reaches the top of it's stroke. Years ago I worked in the service dept. of a Subaru dealership and most Subaru's at the time needed relatively high octane fuel to run properly. I don't know if that is still the case, but if you haven't already, fill 'er up with super. If that doesn't work, you may have carbon build up on your pistons and valves. The build up raises your compression ratio and will thus cause detonation. Try using a top engine decarbonizing agent like BG 44K. The stuff can work wonders.

Good luck.

Yes, I have tried up to 94 AKI fuel that is available here in BC. I've tried colder spark plugs. I've tried lots of different fuel cleaners/additives, valve cleaners and intake manifold cleaners. I've tried different fuel brands (Esso/EXXON, Chevron, Petro Canada, Shell, ARCO, Husky/Mohawk...). I've tried lighter and heavier engine oil.

They (Don Docksteader Subaru, Richmond Subaru and Specialty Subaru all in BC) have replaced the following:

- Front A/F sensor

- Knock sensor

- Retarded timing

- "Tried to download" ECU while engine is different mods (idle, under work load, accelerating, going uphill, etc.) to no avail. I'm not sure if this last one (happened on July 27th) is only to give me run-around so they can buy them self more time and/or tire me so eventually I give up. I don't think this last is going to happen. ;-)

Also, since I'm doing minor maintenance by myself, on last spark plug change I've noticed that spark plug on cyl. #2 has electrode that is more worn then other three. It happened only after 5K km and those were NGK Iridium spark plugs. In other words, these plugs should last much, much longer then regular copper tip spark plug. Now I have NGK BKR7ES-11 and things are little better but the engine still detonates on light to moderate throttle when accelerating or going uphill with 92 AKI fuel.

You should have hear it while I was in Las Vegas this summer at 40C (104F). Man, that engine was pining like crazy on premium fuel. After that trip I doubt there is any carbon depostis in the engine. 5K km at

130 kmph at 3,000 rpm. No way.

On the other hand SoC does acknowledge that there are few cars with this problem. I bet there are more in US given the bigger market but people do not know how/where/what to report.

I was talking to local TV station reporter and the lady was surprised what I was telling her. No offense, but ladies do not know what to listen to. What to recognize. How to report it.

Anyway, thanks for your advice. I guess I got one of those "bad/graveyard shift" cars. ;-) Somebody in Indiana was trying to resolve his/her problems when my car was build, like I'm doing now. ;-) Just kidding. I guess that's the only thing that's left for me at the moment.

Take care, VOJA ILIC

Scott McKern>Have you tried using a higher octane fuel? This will often times solve the

I own an '02 OBS W/4EAT, that ran like crap from delivery. After following this issue for a while, I've come to the conclusion that a number of '02's were used as test mules to determine whether the existing hardware could be made to meet SULEV regs with only ECU program changes. Basically SULEV guinea pig ECU's.

I got my car to run great by tweaking the values at the sensor inputs (IAT sensor, TPS sensor, knock sensor, rear O2 sensor) and using 93 octane, but I doubt most folks would wanna have to go through that. I think the problem is fixable via an ECU reflash if SOA would acknowledge it.

An alternative might be to find a boneyard ECU from a model year that seemded to run good and do a swap. I don't recall hearing any complaints from '03 owners regarding drivability issues like I do from '02 owners, so that might be the ticket. Might even try that myself.

-Danny

this issue for a while,

determine whether the

changes. Basically SULEV

sensor, TPS sensor, knock

wanna have to go through

There was a factory TSB for reflash...at least on some 02s...this was all I found quickly, but I've seen it mentioned elsewhere:

Just checked it out, but the reflash appears to be an attempt at curing a reccuring evap-emissions CEL on the '02 WRX, so I'm not sure it applies in this specific instance. Thanks for the heads-up tho.

reccuring evap-emissions

Thanks for the heads-up

Roger...but there mighta been more it, than that. The posts I dug up on it were not the ones I originally read, reference a TSB reflash.

You look kinda familiar...been over at AGA lately? ;-)

Ken Gilbert shows up here from time to time, too!

I think that the costs associated with archival ends up forcing most of the moderated boards to severely limit the extent of retrievable posts (timewise). NABISCO has a really high volume of posting, and it seems like if you don't search for something within a years time or so, there's a chance it'll dissapear.

Frankly, I've lost the desire to give out free info, primarily for the reason that it's never appreciated. I've been doing much better giving out the same info at 40/hr. Secondly, an unnamed fellow running the "AGA Website" seemed to assume the parallel role (in his mind anyway) of "aga ng moderator", which became annoying. Lastly, the political S/N ratio was getting out of hand, and coincidently right about the time I began calling people down on their lack of critical thinking skills regarding the specific chain of events that occured on the morning of

9/11, my ability to log-on to newsgroups became sporadic, go figure. After making a passing comment regarding possible Israeli/Mossad involvement, my log-on requirements like username and password kept changing at random. Coincidence? Obviously.

Kiss my ass Ken! LOL!!!!!!

moderated boards to

True, but not as true as it used to be even five years ago. I've seen it this year, since I only had the opportunity to really follow NASIOC since January or so. So, it was mentioned within past few months.

I went over to NHTSA.org...there's 44 TSBs out of the MY02 Impreza!!

that it's never

Glad to hear that.

mind anyway) of "aga ng

If it's Miles, IIRC the server/hosting is on his machine . Kent's been gone for a few months now, still gigging along AFAIK. Roy B. (biasbros) has abandoned it out of annoyance with the political crap and business, he's down the road from me...LV, Ned, Bob, Scott Colburn & Roccaforte are pretty much same as usual.

Yeah, it's still staying pretty high, with election year and all. Even furriners like Chris Berry are opining on who we *really* need ;-)

They're good, but they ain't *that* good ;-)

Hey, he's got a rockin' WRX wagon...an 02 I think, in fact!

Steve

following this issue for a while,

to determine whether the

changes. Basically SULEV

sensor, TPS sensor, knock

wanna have to go through

seemded to run good and do a

drivability issues like I do

Nope. My '03 Legacy GT sedan has the same pinging problem. You can even hear it faintly at highway speed if it's warm enough outside. I'm writing my letter to SoC tomorrow for this, and a few other issues with the car.....Frank.

So much for that idea. :^)

I think the big bore and short stroke conspire to make the Sube less tolerant of combustion chamber deposits than would be a similar engine with an undersquare configuration, so keeping the chambers de-carboned helps. The old water-spray method is as viable as it ever was. Use the vacuum port on the TB to suck ice water out of a jar in controlled fashion after thoroughly warming the motor.

You can parallel a resistor (22k) across the output of the rear O2 sensor to drop it's voltage by a certain percentage. The ECU then thinks that the average mixture or "long-term fuel" is a little lean and shifts the lambda target up to compensate, so in effect you fool the engine into running just a wee bit richer during part-throttle (closed-loop) operation.

A trace of occasional spark knock on hot days isn't going to hurt anything. Typically it happens at

2500 RPM at 1/3 throttle applied, A/C on. It's the heavy, continuous knocking under heavy load that becomes detrimental, so as long as you're not getting any of that, your most likely OK.

_*Godfrey Smith of Don Docksteader Subaru (1.604.323.2233), Vancouver, BC, Canada and Christina Morris from Subaru of Canada (1.905.568.4959 /

391) (BTW she is the one you need to talk to re. your car problems if you bought your car in Canada)*_ told me last time I talked to them that they have few (they didn't want to elaborate how many is "few") 2002 and 2003 Legacy/Outback/Forester models with auto transmission with the same problem as I have.

Last time I was in their (Don Docksteader) service shop they tried to "download" ECU program so they can send it to Subaru Japan for analyze.

I'm not sure if this is a run-around they are giving me so they can buy some more time, but I'm fed up with their excuses.

Voja

Frank Pyatt wrote:

I have a Forester 2.5 X AT - australia, 17,000 KM -started hearing engine ping after about 4000 KM onwards. So far no resolution of the issue from the service centre here - they have performed stock standard upper engine clean more then 6-7 times by now. Problem eases when I add new high quality fuel - but after driving for about 100 Kms the ping reappears. By the looks of it if seems somethings wrong with Subaru japans ECU firmware maps - but until those tweedwids admit it nothings gonna happen. The service centre guys have no relavent fault code or repair process defined in their instructions book.

Please keep us updated about your progress, as I am considering launching some sort of action against subaru locally in australia as well.

Good luck.

"TWEEDWIDS"!!! LOL! God I love it! The one I do before I die is visit OZ for a bit just to soak up the culture. The euphemisms are the greatest advertisement for tourism IMO.

Methinks I'm a tweedwid. Let's try that again:

gotta ^

for a bit just to soak

Typically it happens at

under heavy load that

I brought my '01 RS (74k mi) in yesterday because it had that 2k -

2.8k ping and also because the CEL had come on last week for a couple days.

I have to bring it back in a week or so when the district service manager is at the dealership -- this is according to the service manual which, and I'm quoting here, said that the problem was caused by "possible deterioration of multiple parts" and he has to inspect the car.

I don't really like the sound of that.

However, if the DM needs to see it, it may be a recall item in the making and I may get all the work done free.

So far, I've had to have my cat replaced (under warranty), my knock sensor (under warranty) and my flywheel/clutch (also under warranty). That last one took some convincing, since it had been doing the shudder thing for a while, but when I found out from here what the problem was, I was 2000mi past warranty.

Now, if I could get all the dents from the parking lot at work covered under warranty.....

I'll post back after I find out what they're going to do.

Paul