Large repair on recently-purchased 99 Outback Sport

Hi all,

Just bought my first Subaru, after wanting one for a long time. I found what I thought was a really great entry-level car: 1999 Outback Sport, 144K miles, no rust, perfect interior, everything operational (air, cruise, etc...), seemed to run great, and be really taken-care-of, $4800.

So, I bought it, drove it joyously for about 2K miles, and then it started hesitating a bit, and over a period of 2 days rapidly declined into spluttering and back-firing constantly. I took it in to a Subaru dealer, and they say they checked it out very thoroughly. They determined that the problem is a "dropped valve guide, causing misfire on cylinder 4", and a $3000 repair is needed to install a new head, some valve-oriented parts, gaskets, and what-not.

I asked them if they can tell if there's any other big problems lurking for me, and they say they've checked it out pretty well and don't see anything else, but obviously can't guarantee anything (except whatever work I have them do, which they do a 12K-mile guarantee on).

So, I'm wondering what other, more "experienced" Subaru owners think of this: is this a common thing, is it a common cost, can I expect to get alot of mileage out of this repair, or am I on the verge of going "upside down" with this car's cost-to- value ratio, you know, questions like that. Its even crossed my mind to ask what the cost of just getting a whole new motor would be...

Anyway, any insight would be appreciated. Thanks in advance...

Reply to
aztek
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Did you get any CEL codes and if so, what were they?

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(whatever) might have some idea of cosy for a rebuilt engine.

Carl

Reply to
Carl 1 Lucky Texan

Mis-fire on cylinder 4

They gave me the mechanic's notes, which say:

"Verified CEL is on, also verified engine lacks power. Pulled code: cyl 4 misfire (P0304) Dropped Y-pipe and found cyl. #4 has dropped causing a misfire Recc. cylinder head replace

8 hours"
Reply to
aztek

how odd. That leads me to actually believe your mechs more. I could see a mechanical problem with a single cylinder yielding ONLT a misfire code. I guess they COULD be reairing something simple and completely fabricating everything else - but the sensible explanation is that it is as they say. I was thinking along the lines "ah, this guy REALLY only needs a front O2 sensore or a MAF at worst."

I suppose there is a likelihood of coolant 'weeping' on the other head if that gasket wasn't replaced. Though the dealership probably installed the Subaru additive, make sure it's on the paperwork. Wonder if they elected to do the timing belt and any other parts in front?

Well, it seems like an odd failure and maybe you're good to go - anyway, if the rest of the car IS very clean, maybe a rebuilt engine could be an option. CCR is highly respected from what I read from multiple sources - no direct connection or experience with them though.

just my $0.02

Carl

Reply to
Carl 1 Lucky Texan

Have read a lot of postings over the years concerning misfires. Very common for owners to complain about cylinder #4. Not once has anyone determined the problem to be caused by a dropped valve guide. I would be curious to know exactly how the dealer determine the problem is the valve guide because other then removing the head I know of no procedure that can be done to reach this expensive conclusion.

A cylinder compression test would not be a bad idea.

My gut feeling is you are about to be taken for an expensive ride.

Reply to
johninKY

Tend to agree, but could they have used some sort of minicam probe through the port? My first guess would have been a broken spark plug, which often achieves the same order of wreckage.Cheers

Reply to
hippo

Thanks for the insight - I have an email off to CCR for a price quote.

Reply to
aztek

I always have that gut feeling, too - this is my 28th car... lots of experience with the particular gut feeling in questions :(

So, would you think a "second opinion" examination of the car would be in order ? I'm thinking of looking around for someone qualified who will hopefully not charge me too much... already paid $115 for the first diagnosis.

Reply to
aztek

Hey buddy, You bought an 8 year old car with ~150k miles. I usually keep a car for 8 years as that is when frequent repair bills start popping up. Do not be surprised if other items begin to fail. Used cars are just that- USED !!! By the time you pay for repairs over the next year or two you will have been able to buy a newer car!!! The $7800 you paid for an 8 year old car doesnt sound so good now does it? Would have been a nice down payment on a new car with a worry free warranty!!!! P.S. newer cars dont rust as much as 60's and 70's so that is not a sign of anything. I had a totally rust free 86 Daytona. But it had cracked exhaust manifold, tranny was troubling, and electrical shorts. Looked good though. If you buy a used car buy one so cheap you wont care about putting money into it.

Reply to
bigjim

By dropping the y exhaust pipe, it might be possible to see whether the guides have moved or not, but... I think they may be trying to take you for a ride.

I would have the compression checked. If it reads ok, i would look for a more mundane explanation, like spark plugs, wires, ignition coil, etc etc.

Good luck

aztek wrote:

Reply to
AS

A second opinion at an independent shop (vs dealer) would not be a bad idea. First off, any repairs done at a dealer will be cheaper at a non- dealer. Second, if you can find a good Subie shop (you never said where you're located) they may be more familiar with older Subies than the dealers are these days.

Dan D (formerly) '99 Legacy L (30th) Central NJ USA

Reply to
Dano58

A second opinion is warranted for any repair on the order of $3k. At the very least you can get an inspection for other stuff that might be wrong to help with the decision to call it a total lost cause or not. You might have another $2k in repairs in two months anyway...

What you describe sounds _a_lot_ like a bad O2 sensor to me (including the misfire code). That repair is a couple hundred at most. So it is worthwhile taking it to an independant mechanic.

I c>> Have read a lot of postings over the years concerning misfires. Very

Reply to
.._..

Thanks - I wondered as much... I live in southern MN (Albert Lea), and work in Minneapolis. Anyone have recommendations of a particularly good Subie shop in the Twin Cities (or S. MN) ?

Reply to
aztek

Sounds reasonable...

That's exactly what I thought ! I felt compelled to try the dealership as I had trouble finding anyone I know that could recommend a good Subaru shop.

I suspected as much, but its always hard for me to tell. As I mentioned, I've had 28 cars and more than my fair share of problems to go along with them. I've tried many shop scenarios: small "good buddy" type places, friends, shops recommended by friends, chain garages, places like Sears or WalMart, about the only thing I've avoided is Dealerships, mostly because of the prices. All the other scenarios I've tried have mostly panned out badly, as well. The only one I have come to trust doesn't work on imports very much, and doesn't want to, and so won't promise me they'll be able to deliver a great job.

Well, thanks for the insight - it helps to hear from others. I'm waiting on a quote for a new motor, just to see if that's something within reason. I also plan on a second opinion, if I can find some place with some recommendation of expertise to warrant some confidence.

Reply to
aztek

OK, that's what the mech said he did...

Thanks for that insight - a quick question: if compression were great on all four cylinders (at least when #4 isn't mis-firing), would that conclusively rule out a dropped valve guide ?

Reply to
aztek

OK, that's what the mech said he did...

Thanks for that insight - a quick question: if compression were great on all four cylinders (at least when #4 isn't mis-firing), would that conclusively rule out a dropped valve guide ?

Reply to
aztek

I agree that is very possible - isn't it a little pessimistic, though ? I've had much better luck than that with many of my used cars, and I wouldn't consider the luck I've had to be an example of "great"... that is, I've definitely had my share of problems, and probably more than my share - even so, I wouldn't characterize things that negatively...

Fair enough - you're talking about the opportunity cost. I understand how that works, but the reality doesn't seem that simple. I agree that the worst-case scenario definitely shines favorably on buying new, but reality lies somewhere between worst-case and best-case, typically at a point difficult to discern, which is why I'm asking for opinions.

Good point - thanks for pointing that out...

That would pay off only if the money you have to put into it ends up being less than the sum of a more expensive car (presumably in better shape) and the money you'd have to put into _it_ to get to an equivalent state of "wellness". This is really at the core of the insight I'm requesting - where is the point at which I am likely to pass from the "bought-for-X-amount-and-spent-Y-on-repairs" being reasonable to it being unreasonable. I don't think its trivial to make generalizations about it...

Reply to
aztek

I have had many used and 4 new cars. There are advantages both ways. BUT, you never really have a 'new' car do you? The dealer does, but yours is used the instant you take delivery. It depreciates by thousands instantly. AND you may very well be shelling out 300-400 dollars each and every month for 5 years even though it is running perfectly. Even a

1200 dollar repair once a year is cheaper than that!

Carl

Reply to
Carl 1 Lucky Texan

On a new car one may have payments for 4 or five years . However, the warranty coverages insulates from a major repair and since you are paying the same each month its easier to budget than say "I need $3000 for a new tranny this week!" Depreciation is meaningless if a car is kept past payments. I usually keep a car for 8 years so I get 3 or for payment free years and I have a car I know the history of. Once major repairs or constant repairs crop up its time to get a new vehicle. Whatever I earn on the car is all mine and makes a nice down payment.

Reply to
bigjim

OK, so I finally got in touch with CCR, and here's what they can do for me:

New motor: $2895 + $200 shipping (shipping includes core return)

I talked to the owner, who was kind enough to listen to my story and give me some advice. She said that it is very rare for a valve guide to drop on this model of motor, but not unheard-of. She would tend to believe a Subaru dealership mechanic if he said he pulled the Y-pipe, looked in, and could see the valve guide had moved, but she wouldn't feel good about repairing it. Apparently, the head assembly is complicated enough that a replacement is the best approach, but replacing just the head, while expensive, isn't good enough - it will be out-of-balance compression-wise, and it won't be a matter of "if", but "when" a variety of problems start again. She said she would only trust a mechanic intimately familiar with Subaru motors, and even then would replace more than just the head (I don't remember all the details, but she mentioned the "bottom" as well).

They do a 3-yr / 36K-mile warranty, and she said that if their motors ever have problems, its almost certainly in the first 20K miles, so its covered - pretty much never after that.

Reply to
aztek

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