O2 sensors

Just some of Subaru's *WONDERFUL* design work. If this is all that's failed 3 times in 12 months, you got a good one! Hint........... Scroll down and read some of the other posts in here. Check out

for some insight from Subaru customers on how shitty Subaru's customer service really is. Pull up a chair, get a large cup of coffee, some comfortable shoes as you will be reading for quite some time.

Smoking Crack? no...not hardly. Go read what is posted on there about Subaru's dealer network. I highly suspect there are a lot of people that don't post their disapproval with Subaru's dealer network. The fact remains, The 2.5L engines are trouble prone as well as other parts of the car. Subaru is certainly NOT the only shitbox on the road. Most of the Kia's, ALL of the Daewoo's, most of the Hyundai's are a box of shit too. Subaru has done ZIP/NADA/NOTHING to improve the design of this trouble prone engine, except to add their "Leak Preventive" crap to the cooling system. Subaru has many design flaws they absolutely refuse to address. How irresponsible can they get? Problems...... Head gaskets O2 sensors fail way too quickly Too small alternator for the load Fuel leaks in cold weather Coolant and oil leaks Windshields that leak water Windows that leak and whistle Strange burning smells (see oil/coolant leaks) POORLY designed cooling system,impossible to purge all air and will fail quickly as soon as the headgasket leaks and creates hotspots.

Read the posts! Try viewing the facts "eyes wide open" and drop the "Brand Loyal" bullshit. Just because you own one and it has not blown up (yet) doesn't make it an "Ubercar" "BMW" owners pull that shit, ask one..and you will hear "its a fantastic car". Ask where it is and you will find it's in the SHOP again...and again...and again, but its the best! These cars have WAY more problems than the typical Japanese car should have these days. The Koreans have somewhat of an excuse(built cheap to BE cheap), Subaru should know better.

If I buy a Kia Rio for $7000 and it blows a headgasket in 45,000 miles I have no one to blame but myself. What did you pay for your 2002 WRX? How long (miles/years)do you expect it to provide reliable service before a MAJOR problem such as a set of headgaskets?

Subaru had a couple more complaints than mercedes - less than BMW. WAY less than Toyota, or Honda or Nissan (though it's hard to tell about complaint RATES and I don't have the time to seperate oput major from minor issues. Certainly, for what one pays for a Mercedes - you'd expect high quality.

Carl

Some folks DO have problems with their dealers. I've had probelms at Ford dealerships. One Honda place was great, another not so hot. One Nissan place was very good. Another VERY bad.

SOME 2.5l engines have been trouble prone.

In all fairness, Hyundais have come a long way.

They have gone to about revision 3 on the HGs, extended folk's warranty and, I'm sure you're aware, GM and othe companies routinely ship new cars with a leak-stop substance in the cooling system.

Goy any proof? or just more hot air?

How

I'm sure, if you are in the 2-3% that had serious HG problems, you would feel they were irresponsible. But I doubt they want to chase customers away.

What kind of car do you drive Bob?

Carl

I agree with you on that Carl. "Minor" stuff happens to ALL brands. I'm not really concerned with stuff like bulbs that went out radio problems, seat belt systems that won't co-operate, stuff like domelights that wont work right. I am concerned with drivability, safety,comfort and long term life of support and powertrain components. Mercedes used to be a solid car before the high-tech era.Now they are somewhat trouble prone and so specialized (see weird) that no one but a factory trained wrench can deal with it (see major costs).They do seem to hold their value in the long run. Would I buy one...even discounted......not on a bet. The 10yr/100,000 mile factory warranties that some offer doesn't mean squat when your traveling 3000 miles from home and your sitting on the side of the freeway with the hood open at 11PM. Last summer we took a run out to Laughlin, Nv. from Southern Calif. He has a WRX, but since the weather out there was 114 degrees during the day they took his wife's Honda Accord! He admits the A/C cant keep up in the heat and was afraid he would cook the engine on the road trip.......why have a car like that?

Something's not right about that. You can ignore the FUD about a design flaw, since it would affect every '05 Impreza.

There are two general possibilities: the O2 sensor is actually failing or it isn't and is being changed out of confusion because of the ECU codes. If it is failing, the usual reasons are contamination (silicones are death to O2 sensors) or blockage of the outside to air by debris or coatings. If he is cleaning the engine compartment it is absolutely essential the cleaner not contain silicones.

More likely, though, is there is a problem that is causing the mixture to fluctuate, and that is triggering bogus O2 sensor codes. Vacuum leaks and dripping injectors are prime suspects for that. The shop changes the sensor, resets the codes, and sends it out the door. A ways down the road the fluctuations annoy the ECU a bit too much and the MIL light comes on.

Mike

I have (for a daily driver) a 1994 Honda Del-Sol with the V-Tec engine in it. it has 98,000 miles on it now. No breakdowns, still passes smog with no problems.It has needed a few things....... Timing belt at 60,000 miles(and water pump) (looked OK to me) Upper and lower radiator hoses replaced at 60,000 miles Brake pads, rotors turned a few times Oil changed at 3000 miles and coolant each summer Changed plugs at 50,000 miles(they looked OK) Still has original clutch! (mostly freeway miles) Topped off the A/C freon once in 12 years. Everything still works, all electric windows,A/C,cooling fan Complaints....... It's too small, no room for luggage It feels too low, everything is bigger on the road The paint is getting dull, some chipping on the leading edge of the hood.

All things considered, I have gotten my moneys worth out of this Honda.

My weekend (Barge) is a 1967 Chrysler powered by a 383 Big Block. Car is all original, numbers all match.It's a "work in progress" car. It runs....and good...but the electric window clutches are shot, the evap coil for the A/C has pinhole leaks. Has no rust, original interior, headliner, dash has no cracks in it.Even has the original brake/gas pedal rubber and original carpeting. I have known the car since it was new, 39 years and the heads have NOT been off this engine.The rear mainseal is weeping, especially if parked for extended times then fired up.

Weekend bike is a 1987 Harley Sportster. Started out life as a 883. Made it into a 1200 in 1991. It ran fine, but I wanted more "Grunt" for passing on the freeway with a passenger. It's NOT as fast as the jap bikes with the same displacement, but its sure fun to ride.It's a "Sleeper" still says "883" on the tank. It kills the 1340cc big twins! With Andrews cams, newer ignition its pretty strong. The best part..it's reliable! it always starts, runs and gets me home.

My first Honda ('78 Civic Sedan - yes, with the trunk flap - not a hatchback) had such horrible vapor lock, I had to carry a jug of water with me to splash on the pump if I made any quick stops on the way home. Or I had to either leave the car running or wait till it cooled significantly to restart it. That was a hassle which was soon cured when it dropped a valve into cylinder number 2. I rebuilt it and dumped it (donated to Goodwill, they sent it to the wholesaler). Guess what? I bought another Honda. '81 Civic wagon. That one was a little better. A/C compressor went out - I could never afford to fix it so I suffered without it. Need waterpumps every 35-40K miles. I just kept getting the lifetime warranty ones. At least it was drinev by the V-belt and not the TB. I loved that car.

So, are Hondas crap Bob? Would I be justified in going to the Honda board and calling them crap?

Carl

I am new to Subaru. And so far the '03 OBW my wife drives has been very good. The only warranty work to speak of was replacing 2 leaking A/C hoses. My daily driver is an '06 WRX wagon. I did get it tinted as is fairly common here in Texas, but I don't know if the A/C will be adequate yet. Frankly - I have tey to encounter adequate A/C in a car here. Perhaps the ones with seat cooling are nice. I dunno. I didn't expect the WRX to be a luxury car. It's excatly what I wanted - a sports wagon. Kind of a cross between my old Honda wagon and my old datsun 2000 ragtop. Do we sometimes take the OBW because it has nicer 'creature comforts'? Of course. Doesn't mean the WRX is a 'bad' car.

Bob - what kind of bad experience did you have with Subaru?

Carl

It depends Carl....how many miles/years did you have on the '81 when it grenaded #2? I too had a 78/79 Hatchback. (it was a little of both years).I bought it for $200 with a dead engine in it. I dropped a "pullout" motor from Japan into it drove the hell out of it for 2 years and sold it for $1200. BIG mistake...that was a good car.The paint was shot, but it ran strong. This one had factory A/C that worked well.

The "ex" had(has) a 1996 Ford Taurus with the 3.0 V6 in it. This god damn car had a different problem every week! I had nothing but trouble with it. It blew the headgasket, spewed oil all over the back of the engine. There was a Ford TSB on it so they covered the repairs but NOT a rental.Next the master brake unit leaked all over the firewall and failed.Then the electronic sensor that works as a distributor took a crap. Ford says they are not covered under the warranty. I shell out $125 for a new one.Ford says

*I* cant replace it...takes "Special" tools....pure horse shit.2 hours later its in and no longer running in the "limp home" mode The dome light circuit worked when it felt like it, sometimes staying on and killing the battery overnight(never found it..pulled the relay).The interior was that dull gray cloth that showed every little imperfection.The factory radio is a joke and you need to adapt the dash and A/C controls to drop in a new one. The radio guts are in the left side of the trunk. It no wonder that Ford has dropped the Taurus from it's lineup. Is the Ford Taurus a piece of crap...I sure think so!

Other cars......

1977 Pontiac Trans-Am 403 (Olds) Posi went out at 90,000 miles 1978 Dodge van/360 GREAT truck, but would flood/overchoke when cold 1987 Dodge van/318 A727 trans failed at 70,000 miles 1989 Honda Accord.....ZERO trouble 1982 Nissan 4X4 pickup....complete junk 1985 Nissan 4X4 Pickup...more junk 1991 Honda CRX......ZERO trouble, traded for 94 Del-Sol 1992 Ford Escort 1.9 FI auto No trouble till 94,000 miles blew HG. Drove it with problem(heater noises) for 8 months till it died. Yanked head,R&R top end did the timing belt, water pump, wires.It passed smog WAY under the stats for a 91 Escort. If it runs for a few more years we will be happy.Total costs to put it back on the road....$800 total was $500 for the new head with valves installed $120 complete engine gasket kit (Felpro) $60 for GOOD water Pump $55 for new timing belt(Gates) $40 for new factory plugwire kit (no pepboys crap) I have had my share of shitbox cars......Honda has been good to me. Ford has been too.Dodge..not bad back then. Nissan....never again

You've had a good experience with Honda - great. Doesn't mean some others didn't have a bad experience with them. And many folks have had good experiences with Subaru (I hope to be one!). The point is, anecdotal evidence is not enough to draw broad conclusions with. I think you know that. I'm not gonna go to the Honda boards and waste my time blasying Hondas because a I had a bad and a mediocre experience with Hondas. Why are you here?

Carl

Carl,

Methinks our boy's just confused... he's had good luck with Dodges, and rides what friends call a Harley "training bike" that he finds reliable (maybe cuz of the engine swap?) This is contrary to ALL the anecdotal stories I've been told by owners of both over the years. In fact, when I was in high school (the days of Bob's Chrysler), a friend's dad was a retired mechanic, and one of our buddies had a Dodge truck. He asked "Dad" if he knew anyone who worked on Dodges. The reply was "Lots of people WORK on Dodges, but nobody's ever FIXED one!"

So maybe Bob's gotten the best of the worst, but complains when some people get the worst of the best. I'd take it all with a grain of salt, eh? At least he didn't tell us he drives an Explorer... I'd have thought he might be Dr. Rasty in disguise if he'd done that!

Rick

"Carl 1 Lucky Texan" wrote in message news:8P6Pf.20501$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...

I have two close friends that own them..one is a WRX the other is a Forester. Both have had nothing but failures with them. Both have been screwed over by multiple dealers service centers. Neither has gotten any support from Subaru, each time they have a problem, the dealer says "that's the first they have seen of this". My "opinion" is just that....someone's opinion. Im not saying to NOT buy a Subaru, but to carefully research them carefully BEFORE making a major investment. The majority of complaints are posted by others, not me.If I see what happened to them, as well as reading it in several areas..it MIGHT be true? I have seen it first hand with the two owners. I got lucky, was going to buy some equipment from "Cyberhome". Friends online advised me it's trouble prone, fails often and "Cyberhome" wont replace or repair it. I read further, they are right! The problem of fuel leaks under the hood during cold weather is one that really bothers me. This is due to CHEAP components! Other cars run high pressure in fuel lines and injection and they don't leak.This tells me that the few cents that Subaru saves is more important to THEM then the possible loss of your car and it's contents. What's your "take" on this Carl? How would you feel if yours caught fire from this defect and Subaru ignored you and your loss? It CAN happen, lots of ignition sources..fan motors, static, hot parts. Has Subaru sent you a TSB or recall for this and oil leaks? Don't get me started on Volkswagens HAHAHA...now there's a COMPLETE bag of shit. VW *NEVER* recalls a car unless the GOVT forces them to.If I was given a brand new one I would sell it and buy an automobile.

So far, there was recall for the OBW to put a clip on the cruise control to help retain a cable. I believe there IS a recall for some year models of WRX to fix the cold weather fule leak. The other cold weather gas smells foks report are likely just a rich setting for starting. Bob, I seem to recall Harley being so bad Reagan had to bail them out! Why aren't you riding a Suzuki? Could it be 'blind brand loyalty'? (BTW-no question there IS some of that in the Subaru owner's community - hardly unique). Certainly no one here ever chastises folks for posting their problems. The nice folks here (all of which have much more practical experience with soobs than me.) are just trying to solve the problems. Your comments are more 'trollish' (and a little hypocritical) and distracting. Certainly, you're free to post them. But 2/3 of them are either false or extremely exaggerated. 1/3 have merit to some degree - but the overall impression destroys your credibility.

just my 2 cents. I think we will have to 'agree to disagree'. You can have the last word.

carl

OK, got it. Bob hates Subarus.Thanks Bob. Carl doesn't.Thanks,Carl

Now then, without the flaming, any suggestions on a plan if it happens again?

Thanks

ntadime

Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:

Thanks.Sounds like I am going to observe it for now. Ther service manager swears that it isn't anything else. I've had good experience with them so far so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I've bought 2 cars there in 2 years ('05 Legacy GT) so they know I'm a good customer, so far.

The last time I looked the O2 sensors were marked BOSCH, the same brand as used on many makes.

Since you are hell bent on bashing the Subie's, bash away. Other owners will make up their own mind about your views.

MIckey

LOL! Even if this were a moderated group, I'm sure Bob should've been allowd to post. OK - maybe some posts were a little repetitious and more emotional than illustrative, and he and I both may have drifted 'off topic' - but I suspect you WILL see a thread similar to this again - someday.

sigh

Carl