QUESTION - need to talk about WRX synchros again

Hey, all.

I have an 02 WRX Wagon, with about 29,000 miles.

Awhile ago, there was a thread on the dubious quality of WRX synchros.

I occasionally 'beat' the synchros, causing the shifter to slam home before the tranny has synched up.

This does not happen often, but I want to deal with it before the powertrain warranty expires.

Oh - I presume the synchros are considered part of the powertrain??

So what I'd like to ask is how I can replicate this symptom? I don't find that it occurs frequently enough for me to be able to engineer the circumstances at will. Sometimes, it's after I pull out of reverse, stop, and go into 1st. Sometimes, it's after I've been sitting at a light with the clutch disengaged.

If I could make it happen when I wanted it to happen, it would be easier to 'prove' at the dealer. Does anyone have any tips, or circumstances under which this is more likely to occur?

Also - I fully expect to face the 'you've been abusing it' argument from the dealer, so I will want to have all the precedents, reports, service notifications I can find, before I go in. I do have a link to a Consumer Reports discussion on the topic, as well as stuff on the nasioc forums. But I don't expect anecdotal reports to persuade my dealer.... ;-(

Last thing - any articles on what's _really_ happening here would help me - I need to educate myself on the components of the transmission, the bits that are wearing out/substandard, all that happy stuff. I have stumbled upon one site which had some diagrams and such, but who knows whether those would apply to WRX motors...

Thanks for all suggestions!

BD

Reply to
BD
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Let me make sure I understand.

You occasionally abuse your transmission and you want help from us so that you can convince your dealer that he should rebuild it under warranty. Am I missing something here?

Reply to
Jim Stewart

Yes - the idea that I abuse it. I do not.

In re-reading my post, I see where I may have given that impression. When I say I 'beat' the synchros, that is not me saying I intentionally hammer them. 'Beating the synchros' is a phrase which I got from this newsgroup, to describe the symptom wherein the shifter is allowed into gear before the synchros have done their job.

If I had said 'beating ON' the synchros, that would be pretty obvious. But no, this is not what I'm saying.

I've had the car for just under 5 years (drivetrain warranty is up at the end of October). I occasionally wind it up, as would any WRX owner, but I do not abuse the clutch, nor the tranny. One day, I was shifting into first, from either a stop or from backing out, using the same amount of force I'd normally use to shift any gear, and it slid right in before the transmission had matched speed.

I've also on my 4th clutch - the first one was giving cold shudder all the time, and I researched enough to find the service notification on that. The dealer agreed to replace that one because of the service note on it, and because I could easily demonstrate the problem. The replacement one left me stranded, after the throw bearing failed while I was on the highway - hadn't even put 60 miles on that clutch. I had that one replaced, and this one resulted in odd resonance at certain RPMs, which were easily demonstrated to the dealer.

I've since done enough research for me to conclude that the clutch/tranny in Imprezas is a rather frequent weak link - at least in N.American built ones.

I've read of enough reports of drivers being blamed for the occasional chipped gear, and having warranty service denied, when it was in fact (from what I have read) substandard equipment that is the causal factor.

I've been trying to learn how to heel/toe when I gear down, to give a bit of throttle when I go down into 1st. This does seem to be useful.

But, I am not convinced that, even if I learn to gingerly match revs while gearing down, I won't be in the occasional position of having to get into 1st gear NOW, and having it smash into gear because of inadequate synchros.

Hope that clarifies things.

BD

Reply to
BD

There may be some aftermarket gear oil with different 'friction modifiers' that could help - maybe the tranny or motorsports threads at

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could help. basically, you need more friction to get the synchros spinning IIRC and some high end/synthetic oils are TOO slippery. Also, a stainless braided clutch line could POSSIBLY help.

Carl

Reply to
Carl 1 Lucky Texan

Thanks, Carl. I do recall mention of a certain synthetic gear oil that many people have had luck with. I'll go back and check.

But the symptom I'm experiencing is not _only_ that the gears aren't in sync, but that the *whateverthehellitis* that puts resistance on the shifter so you cannot put it into gear before it's ready - I thought I'd read that it was some metal bar or rod - this thing isn't always 'there'. When this symptom occurs, the shifter just drops into gear with the lightest of touches - the rod/bar/jigger/thingy which normally presents resistance is just 'absent'. ...on very rare occasion.

Gotta love consistent behaviour when troubleshooting a problem, hm?

So I guess the sense here is that given that its as intermittent as it is, there may not be anything wrong with the actual mechanism? I've read discussions of which metals are used for the synchros, and the fact that they can wear out early, etc.

Thanks!

Reply to
BD

I only know what I've read so I have'nt the experience that some here do. My '06 seems very tight and 'notchy' but there have been changes since your's so it isn't a fair comparison. A decent mod/upgrade for you might be a shorter shifter and especially some Kartboy or other bushings

- at least you'd have an excuse to look and see if there is something broken or worn out under there. A bad tranny mount might cause some kinda misalignment too I guess.

good luck and get back to us if you find something OK?

Carl

Reply to
Carl 1 Lucky Texan

I will - thanks!

Reply to
BD

I suggest to read the entry in wikipedia on standard transmission and advanced driving techniques. The lack of resistance you're describing is when you're slowing down and going from 2nd into the 1st? That's what wiki describes in one entry found from the article on standard tranny.

Reply to
Body Roll

EXCELLENT point! Likely the OP is experiencing a condition where the shaft and engine rpms are equal such that the syncronizers are not required. This could happen accelerating or - possibly, slowing down if the gas pedal is tapped or you're slow releasing the gas (or the clutch in.gas off timing is wrong) when downshifting.

Sorta like rev matching or double clutching to bypass synchronizer function.

If you feel like it really is a problem, make arrangements to drive a different stick shift car and see if you can duplicate the phenomenon. It is possible to shift without the clutch by careful rev matching and slow gear selection.

carl

Reply to
Carl 1 Lucky Texan

That's one of 3 scenarios in which I've seen it happen:

1-slowing to a stop, going from 2nd to 1st; 2-pulling out in reverse, and then going quickly into 1st; 3-idling at a stop sign, with the clutch _not_ engaged, and then going into 1st when the light goes green.

I'll review that wiki entry.

Reply to
BD

I am teaching myself to heel/toe when I use the brake; that helps. Tapping the throttle at certain times also helps.

But it's the occasions when I need to move quickly when it stands to do me the most harm - pulling out of a parallel park spot and taking off into traffic requires that I be a bit assertive with shifting into 1st. It's situations like these, when I don't necessarily have _time_ to rev-match or gently ease the shifter into gear.

FWIW, my previous car was a '91 Tercel, with 210000 km on it when I sold it, and I _never_ had any issues like this. I believe the clutch was still original; certainly the tranny was.

I really shouldn't have to re-learn how to shift here, should I? Or is this just the occasional reqiurement for having a higher-performance car?

What _really_ bugs me is that this has not been this way from the get-go. It's a fairly recent development.

Reply to
BD

I THINK 1st and reverse share a shaft so that one makes sense. In the past, a '69 Datsun convertible I owned was very picky about going into first from neutral/whatever and ,when stopped of course, I found selecting reverse then selecting 1st would help.

The reason Subaru changed the 1st gear s'nizers(and other stuff) in the MY'06 5MT was because it has been a 'less than ideal' tranny. I'd try Redline or other gear oil, but likely nothing will solve the issue completely. Of course, the may actually be some damage. IIRC there is a magnet on the drain plug. Perhpas, if you upgrade the lubricant in your tranny, inspecting the magnet for more than a normal amount of metallic 'fuzz' would tell you if further exploratory surgery was called for.

I dunno - maybe visit the tranny forum at

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.

Carl

Reply to
Carl 1 Lucky Texan

I think people mentioned that this is called "beating the synchros".

I had a friend who switched to an automatic after a toyolet tercel with

5sp. He absolutely hated to shift on that P.O.S. Ironically, he got an Accord and probably would never know that he missed one of the best standard transmissions on the market. I have a coworker who drives a car with an auto because he learned to drive back home; standard transmissions in the eastern european cars are P.O.S. and he thinks he's not a good with shifting. Then I have another friend whose favorite past time is teaching people to drive a stick (she hates gold carts with all her heart). She claims to have converted about a dozen people so far. Anyhow, I think shitty standard transmissions of the yore and the present are at least partly responsible for 99% of the american public of driving cars with automatics.

No. It just happens that standard tranny was not a priority for Subaru. At least on Impreza before MY06. Strange considering that unlike the Detrua V6+auto boatmakers FHI sells a large percentage of cars with a stick shift. Maybe about half? Most of WRXes these days anyway unless some gullible people are buy limited trim.

So what? You'd ride this tranny into the ground and hopefully the transmission shop could find a rebuilt 6sp from STI for you. Still cheaper than replacing the whole car. Especially if you also live in a place with a huge sales tax. Good luck shopping! (Hunting?)

Reply to
Body Roll

I am on my second set of synchros. I have exactly the same problem you describe. It doesn't require abuse of the car to have the problem. I had my first set replaced at about 30k miles. I am now at 60k miles and having the problem again. I have an extended warranty and will have the dealer fix the problem again before it runs out. Be persistent. You'll find it happens most in hot weather. This is the best time to demo the problem. After a certain point, it will get so bad that even at a stop, shifting in and out of gear will cause a clunk that the dealer can't ignore. Good luck.

DGC

Reply to
Dean G. Connell

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