Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants

My last two cars were Fords: both of them died earlier than I expected. (My latest was only 10 when it died - due to something deep in the engine that was going to cost around as much to sort out as the car was then worth. The previous one was an automatic whose transmission ended up needing to be rebuilt.) The only American car we had that much impressed me was our 1981 Oldsmobile Regency '98 which, at 17 years old, still mostly had its original parts. However, one good thing about Ford: you may need a few spare parts over the car's life, but they're not as expensive as some brands' parts.

My understanding is that Subaru's much improved with respect to this engine problem in recent years. I'm not having problems with my STi, but at 28,000 miles it's probably too soon to be sure. The only things I've needed to do to it so far have been pretty superficial. Maybe the major parts are due to break when it's outside the 30,000-mile warranty - we'll see. (-:

(cut crosspost because I don't post to groups I don't read)

-- Mark

I guess these things are all subjective and just one guy's experience. I have a hard time not commenting here, though, with respect to this due to my experience with GM vehicles. I've got a '93 Chev. diesel pickup with

208,000 m. on it that has been without any major problems. Particularly the turbodiesel engine. Absolutely rock solid reliability and this truck has not been coddled at all. Had a '79 and an '83 of the same vehicle with the exact same experience. Even the paint jobs never faded out on me and they still looked good until the last day I had them. The only Jap car I ever owned was back when I was working in Saudi Arabia. A Datsun that spum out a rod bearing and left me beside the road. A friend I worked with bought one of those new Nissan small pickups. He'd had it about a year when he started in our work parking lot and the crank pully broke off at the crankshaft. You read that right. The crankshaft snapped off flush with the front of the engine. I'm not saying this has never happened to a GM vehicle, just that I've never heard of it and I've been around for 56 yrs. I just do not agree at all with this business of GM not building reliable vehicles, but, again, it's just my personal experience.

Garrett Fulton

I can accept that. But, I can also say that I have had relatives (just as yourself) who have had Chevy trucks last well past 400,000 with nothing major done to it, and the other day a friend stopped by with a Cavalier which had already rolled the odometer once, and they were quite pleased with the car as well. As for Honda's, I cant really comment on them as I have never owned one, and I have a strictly GM family (I live in Oshawa Ontario, so a lot of them work at the plant there, and a couple more work for GM dealerships), however my mother's boyfriend does have a Civic. Though, I once again can't comment on it as I have never driven it, and he does not know much about them as he trades it in every 2 or so years. I guess basically, every car company makes the occasional 'pearl' and every company makes the occasional 'lemon'.

Hey, I live near Oshawa, too and my husband and I have both worked at GM over 20 years. I buy a new car every couple years and only had one Cavalier many years ago that was a piece of junk. Ironically, I bought it because it had been made in Ohio rather than Mexico. My family's experience has been excellent, as well. Also, we have gotten a few things "goodwilled", i.e. paid for (bearings on a Rendezvous, head gasket on a Venture), after the vehicles were well out of warranty. Sometimes you just have to ask.

GM and Toyota share the top quality awards. It is mostly a false perception, based on the past, that GM's quality is poor. The plant they are axing in Oshawa has the best quality in North America, of all the companies.

Jane

Who cares if GM closes plants. Workers are overpaid for doing jobs trained monkeys can do. They want benefits and all sorts of perks not deserved by blue collar workers. GM designs the ugliest cars (exc vette) with the cheapest interior plastics. I wouldnt buy one. GM even had to use an Isuzu Trooper to win the Race Across Australia. Instead of greedy workers asking for more, they should accept a pay freeze and tell management to put the money into buying better components then quality will rise and then sales will too.

Why is it that GM and Ford and Chrysler for that matter, can't seem to build a solid reputation for a "type" of car. I mean Honda, Toyota have the reputation for being reliability/quality leaders. Subaru as a AWD and reliability leader, Volvo as a safety leader etc. Matbe the big three are trying to be all things to all people with the result of being only mediocre to non-pragmatic people. I research what I buy, before I buy it. I wouldn't touch a GM regardless of features-for-the-buck. Chrysler and Ford...Ditto. I'm glad GM had to sell off it's FHI (Subaru) interests. It only raises the Subaru name by doing so. GM is crap and until they figure out that long-term proven results with their vehicles will translate into market share. Bad results-declining market share. They cut their own throat with all of the heavy discounting, insulting advertising and shitty cars. Good riddance as far as I'm concerned.

I think it depends on the dealership you go to. Some are very co-operative and will assist you in any way they can.

Tell me about it. Ticked me off something fierce when I read they were closing that plant. They need to fire that idiot in charge and get the company rolling again.

80K

Many don't believe it will actually happen. Likely wishful thinking, but we'll see. They will want concessions, especially mandatory overtime. It may also depend on the dollar and other things we have no control over.

Jane

Hey DickHead, did you ever work anywhere except Micky 'D's? What you are saying is that blue collar workers are 2nd class citizens. WRONG!

Your are entitled to you own opinion but it is after all that of a minority. The fact is more buyers prefer the vehicles from GM Ford and Chrysler than prefer either Toyotas or Hondas. Number one GM, sell three times as many vehicles as number four or five Toyota or Honda. Number two Ford, sells more than twice as many vehicles as Toyota or Honda Chrysler sell half again as many as Toyota. With all of the high quality, well built vehicles, offered by GM, Ford and Chrysler today a prudent buyer is not going to spend

20% to 30% more to buy a Toyota or Honda

mike hunt

Last time I checked, Toyota is #2 and quickly closing.

You have blinded eyes and are looking just inside your little world. Many GM cars are very behind Toyota, Honda and others on design. Toyota will soon be the largest car manufacturer in the world, the customers obviously like Toyota's, Honda's, etc. designs and quality, because as you state they generally cost more, but the difference is much less than you suggest and is decreasing. Recently the big 3 have seen dropping sales, while Toyota, Honda, etc. have had steady sales increases. The customers are talking with their dollars.

For example one thing I definitely need in my cars is a full size matching spare. GM's recent designs (even of their smaller SUVs) don't have a wheel well capable of holding a full size spare, while most Toyotas actually include a matching full size spare.

GM has been trying to catch up in design in the last few years, but their cost structure is killing them. The income from GMAC and retained cash has been keeping GM above water. Those days are quickly ending.

Where do I stand on my car purchases? In the 50s I switched to imports being very unhappy with the 50s cars; back to big 3 cars in the 60s; back to imports in the 70s; have bought big 3 cars since 1979. Unfortunately I don't see a current big 3 car product that meets my requirements.

However most Toyotas, Hondas, etc. are no longer imports to NAFTA, so my choice of a non import is much larger than previously!

I guess that you must only be talking about in North America, because your numbers on not even close on a worldwide scale.

John

Ford and GM either cannot, or do not want to produce a quality passenger car. This is a fact!

I tend to believe they have lost the capacity to produce competitive quality passenger cars a long time ago. They have been losing market-

-share in all metropolitan areas, for years now, and in some places like California it is almost unthinkable to buy a GM or Ford passenger car product.

What keeps these two zombies alive is three things.

First, they own some foreign brands, and also sell some of their cars to unsophisticated consumers in places like China, Eastern Europe, Middle East, etc.

Second, they control rental companies to whom they sell a lot of their passenger junk.

Third, their extensive network of dealerships in rural and semi-rural areas gives them a certain degree of monopoly in those markets. Consumers in rural America just have no alternative but to buy their products. If Nissan, Honda, Toyota, and others had even a half-decent network of dealerships in small town America GM and Ford would be wiped out of the passanger car bussiness altogether!!!

The foreign, and rental business, plus a few niche products like the Corvette, Mustang, would not be enough to keep Ford and GM in car manufacturing. Both companies would become pick-up truck and van/suv manufacturers exclusively.

MN

Like said your are entitled to you own opinion but I stopped buying foreign cars some time ago because they cost much more than their domestic competitors cars. I have yet to find any of my current, or previous domestic cars, to be of poor quality. To the contrary, the have all been well built quality cars that perform as good or better they any foreign cars I have owned. I no longer need to put up with the arrogance of foreign car dealers who seem to think they are doing me a favor buy letting me buy one of their overpriced cars. More buyers feel as I do since they buy more GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles than Toyota or Honda and THAT my friend is a fact ;)

mike

You are free to spend your money wherever you wish ;)

Well, I have a 1990 Hyundai Excel that has made 85k miles without a single major, or minor repair (the fuel pump was replaced which can be treated as a maintenance item). Of course this does not mean that Hyundai's of the late

80s, or early 90s are or ever were reliable cars. It seems I was just extremely lucky! Perhaps you are lucky also.

Here you have an extremely valid point. Ripoffs and disrespectful treatment seem to be far more prevelant at import car dealerships than at domestic. This is a pity.

I guess the catch is "vehicles" but not passenger cars. Ford and GM sell tons of pick-up trucks which account for the difference.

So yes, perhaps more buyers buy GM/Ford/Chrysler vehicles than Toyota/Honda but I think you are gravely mistaken claiming that they all feel as happy as you do, because many are likely not willing buyers, but are forced, as no alternative to the oligopoly of Big 3 exists (Honda and Toyota have a very patchy network of dealerships in small town, rural America). This is why Ford/GM are still around, and not bankrupt yet!

MN

Were, in your dreams? ;)

Six months sales figures individual vehicles

. Ford F-Series 432,969 . Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 . Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 . Toyota Camry 213,625 . Honda Accord 192,106 . Ford Explorer 168,059 . Honda Civic 162,483 . Ford Taurus 144,035 . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 . Dodge Caravan 131,367

mike

I have no affinity for domestics. From what I saw in my business every manufacture is building high quality dependable vehicles today. I personally believe, with all of the good vehicles on the market today, there is not valid reason to pay more to buy a foreign vehicle and add to the trade imbalance. As to the Korean cars if I were to chose to have my money leave the country I would buy a Korean car before a Japanese car because of the pricing.

mike