A friend of mine was claiming that one good reason for going with nitrogen inflation rather than air is that a nitrogen-inflated tire won't ever leak out (i.e. unless there is a puncture). I can't see why that would be the case. Quite often I've seen that the air leaks happen not because of punctures but because of poor seals around the rims, especially on aluminum rims (steel rims seem to be much better at sealing). How is nitrogen going to solve the poor seal problem? Standard air is already 70% nitrogen anyways.
The whole nitrogen vs. air thing is a mass of (mis)information. Consider that regular air contains approximately 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 1% other stuff. If you put air in your tire you are already over 3/4 of the way to a nitrogen fill. That leaves the oxygen which, admittedly, can do bad things to the rubber and metal and might be absorbed by the rubber and degrade it over many years but I suspect that the real advantage of nitrogen for passenger cars is that nitrogen from a commercial source is _dry_ and this cannot be said of air from just any compressor. If one was to ensure that the air was totally dry, and this can be done with some effort, it seems likely to me that nitrogen would offer no real benefit for routine passenger car use.
Of course with the wild claims being made by the vendors of tire nitrogen equipment reason doesn't come into play very often. The local tire emporium which I use to install my Tire Rack purchases has a nitrogen fill advertisement in their waiting room touting one of the advantages of nitrogen as "not explosive". If you can figure that one out through whatever contorted logic, please elucidate.
Which I was sort of alluding to as well, it's already over 70% nitrogen in air, so how does going 90%+ nitrogen really help? I know in race cars they talk about how nitrogen makes it easier to figure out expansion rates in the tire, but that's racing, we're hardly going to be going that fast.
What about the theory that Clare was mentioning that the nitrogen fill has less oxygen which promotes oxidation?
Well there are a lot of products with wild claims about them, but that doesn't mean they may not have some real advantages. If you subtract out the wild claims, are there any valid claims?
On Thursday, September 20, 2012 3:39:59 PM UTC-4, Yousuf Khan wrote:
ng is a mass of (mis)information. Consider > that regular air contains appr= oximately 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 1% > other stuff. If you put air in= your tire you are already over 3/4 of the > way to a nitrogen fill. That l= eaves the oxygen which, admittedly, can do > bad things to the rubber and m= etal and might be absorbed by the rubber > and degrade it over many years b= ut I suspect that the real advantage of > nitrogen for passenger cars is th= at nitrogen from a commercial source is > _dry_ and this cannot be said of = air from just any compressor. If one > was to ensure that the air was total= ly dry, and this can be done with > some effort, it seems likely to me that= nitrogen would offer no real > benefit for routine passenger car use. Whic= h I was sort of alluding to as well, it's already over 70% nitrogen in air,= so how does going 90%+ nitrogen really help? I know in race cars they talk= about how nitrogen makes it easier to figure out expansion rates in the ti= re, but that's racing, we're hardly going to be going that fast. What about= the theory that Clare was mentioning that the nitrogen fill has less oxyge= n which promotes oxidation? > Of course with the wild claims being made by = the vendors of tire > nitrogen equipment reason doesn't come into play very= often. The local > tire emporium which I use to install my Tire Rack purch= ases has a > nitrogen fill advertisement in their waiting room touting one = of the > advantages of nitrogen as "not explosive". If you can figure that = one > out through whatever contorted logic, please elucidate. Well there ar= e a lot of products with wild claims about them, but that doesn't mean they= may not have some real advantages. If you subtract out the wild claims, ar= e there any valid claims? Yousuf Khan
Oxidation is what finally does in rubber. As for nitrogen not deflating it is possible that osmotic pressure will ten= d to maintain pressure. This is basically a dilution effect with the oxyge= n in the air leaking in from the outside. OTOH, nitrogen is lower molecular weight than oxygen and low molecular weig= ht materials will penetrate the rubber faster. =20 Personally I'd like to see some technical data with the nitrogen/air thing. Tires are made to resist oxidation.
is a mass of (mis)information. Consider > that regular air contains approximately 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 1% > other stuff. If you put air in your tire you are already over 3/4 of the > way to a nitrogen fill. That leaves the oxygen which, admittedly, can do > bad things to the rubber and metal and might be absorbed by the rubber > and degrade it over many years but I suspect that the real advantage of > nitrogen for passenger cars is that nitrogen from a commercial source is > _dry_ and this cannot be said of air from just any compressor. If one > was to ensure that the air was totally dry, and this can be done with > some effort, it seems likely to me that nitrogen would offer no real
well, it's already over 70% nitrogen in air, so how does going 90%+ nitrogen really help? I know in race cars they talk about how nitrogen
we're hardly going to be going that fast. What about the theory that Clare was mentioning that the nitrogen fill has less oxygen which promotes oxidation? > Of course with the wild claims being made by the vendors of tire > nitrogen equipment reason doesn't come into play very often. The local > tire emporium which I use to install my Tire Rack purchases has a > nitrogen fill advertisement in their waiting room touting one of the > advantages of nitrogen as "not explosive". If you can figure that one > out through whatever contorted logic, please elucidate. Well there are a lot of products with wild claims about them, but that doesn't mean they may not have some real advantages. If you subtract out the wild claims, are there any valid claims? Yousuf Khan
maintain pressure. This is basically a dilution effect with the oxygen in the air leaking in from the outside.
materials will penetrate the rubber faster.
In an ideal world. better than 90% of "mass market" tires in North America are made off-shore - with a large percentage Chinese - which means there is no reason to expect things are as they should be.
On Thursday, September 20, 2012 5:05:52 PM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:
rote: >On Thursday, September 20, 2012 3:39:59 PM UTC-4, Yousuf Khan wrote:= >> On 20/09/2012 9:22 AM, John McGaw wrote: > The whole nitrogen vs. air t= hing is a mass of (mis)information. Consider > that regular air contains ap= proximately 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 1% > other stuff. If you put air = in your tire you are already over 3/4 of the > way to a nitrogen fill. That= leaves the oxygen which, admittedly, can do > bad things to the rubber and= metal and might be absorbed by the rubber > and degrade it over many years= but I suspect that the real advantage of > nitrogen for passenger cars is = that nitrogen from a commercial source is > _dry_ and this cannot be said o= f air from just any compressor. If one > was to ensure that the air was tot= ally dry, and this can be done with > some effort, it seems likely to me th= at nitrogen would offer no real > benefit for routine passenger car use. Wh= ich I was sort of alluding to as well, it's already over 70% nitrogen in ai= r, so how does going 90%+ nitrogen really help? I know in race cars they ta= lk about how nitrogen >makes it easier to figure out expansion rates in the= tire, but that's racing, we're hardly going to be going that fast. What ab= out the theory that Clare was mentioning that the nitrogen fill has less ox= ygen which promotes oxidation? > Of course with the wild claims being made = by the vendors of tire > nitrogen equipment reason doesn't come into play v= ery often. The local > tire emporium which I use to install my Tire Rack pu= rchases has a > nitrogen fill advertisement in their waiting room touting o= ne of the > advantages of nitrogen as "not explosive". If you can figure th= at one > out through whatever contorted logic, please elucidate. Well there= are a lot of products with wild claims about them, but that doesn't mean t= hey may not have some real advantages. If you subtract out the wild claims,= are there any valid claims? Yousuf Khan > >Oxidation is what finally does = in rubber. >As for nitrogen not deflating it is possible that osmotic press= ure will tend to maintain pressure. This is basically a dilution effect wit= h the oxygen in the air leaking in from the outside. >OTOH, nitrogen is low= er molecular weight than oxygen and low molecular weight materials will pen= etrate the rubber faster. >Personally I'd like to see some technical data w= ith the nitrogen/air thing. >Tires are made to resist oxidation. In an idea= l world. better than 90% of "mass market" tires in North America are made o= ff-shore - with a large percentage Chinese - which means there is no reason= to expect things are as they should be.
I would agree with your comments on Chinese tires and that has been a conce= rn. Years ago I bought some bicycle tires at Sears for a kids bike that wa= s seldomn used and the tires were rotted out within a year. I was worried about my Subaru tires as being retired, I only drive 6,000 mi= /yr but they held up for their expected lifetime mileage. Now a days, who = knows where an American brand is made. Lots are made in China with America= n technology and are probably equal to US manufactured tires.
They're not lying; it isn't explosive. It's like wearing a wooden cross to keep the vampires away; it's clear that it works because you don't see any vampires around here, do you?
Years ago I bought some bicycle tires at Sears for a kids bike that was seldomn used and the tires were rotted out within a year.
but they held up for their expected lifetime mileage. Now a days, who knows where an American brand is made. Lots are made in China with American technology and are probably equal to US manufactured tires.
I don't worry about whether a tire is made in China. Most goods are made there, and they specifically have different quality levels based on which export markets they are intended for. Some export markets are, price-is-the-only-issue, while others have a mixture of price/quality-is-the-issue.
concern. Years ago I bought some bicycle tires at Sears for a kids bike that was seldomn used and the tires were rotted out within a year.
mi/yr but they held up for their expected lifetime mileage. Now a days, who knows where an American brand is made. Lots are made in China with American technology and are probably equal to US manufactured tires.
concern. Years ago I bought some bicycle tires at Sears for a kids bike that was seldomn used and the tires were rotted out within a year.
mi/yr but they held up for their expected lifetime mileage. Now a days, who knows where an American brand is made. Lots are made in China with American technology and are probably equal to US manufactured tires.
Not really, the American market is their biggest market for their price/quality-mix range. The real price-only-conscious markets are places like Indian subcontinent, and Africa, etc. In the American market, people won't quibble over a few dollars difference, but in places where a few dollars are a month's wages, then there is a big price consciousness there.
When I was in the Military, nitrogen was preferred on the aircraft; but cle= an dry air was OK. Nitrogen was more stable in regards to maintaining press= ures on the aircraft so you were less likely to have to service a accumulat= or every night; but we were also dealing with pressures of 1000-3500 psi an= d massive weights on tires and struts.=20 I think the entire nitrogen thing regarding car tires is a scam...
Thanks, good links. Looks like most are of the opinion that nitrogen is overrated, and they were all making the same cases against its stated advantages.
A friend of mine was claiming that one good reason for going with > nitrog= en inflation rather than air is that a nitrogen-inflated tire > won't ever = leak out (i.e. unless there is a puncture). I can't see > why that would be= the case. Quite often I've seen that the air leaks > happen not because of= punctures but because of poor seals around the > rims, especially on alumi= num rims (steel rims seem to be much better > at sealing). How is nitrogen = going to solve the poor seal problem? > Standard air is already 70% nitroge= n anyways. For what thery're worth ... Tires - Nitrogen air loss study The benefit= s of using replacing air in your tires with nitrogen at up to $10 a pop are= minimal says Bankrate. Is Nitrogen Better than Air in Ca= r Tires? Tire Tech Information - Clearing the Air About Nitrogen Tire Inflation= Is it= better to fill your tires with nitrogen instead of air?
Very good references. Do not quite address the oxidation/rubber degradatio= n claims and I doubt that is a significant problem today.
One reference says nitrogen molecules are bigger than oxygen but lighter,= =20 N2 molecular weight is 28 vs 32 for O2 and normally the smaller the molecul= ar weight the more rapidly the gas will permeate. This is why hydrogen fil= led balloons will deflate over night. So, I'll credit the lower loss of pr= essure to with N2 to the dryness as H2O has a molecular weight of 18. And,= there is also the osmotic pressure phenomenon. It would be interesting to= test the composition of the gas in the tires after the tests.
Speaking of Subaru tires, one of the pressure gauges in my wife's 2008 Fore= ster became defective. She made me check the pressure and even put in an e= xtra 5 pounds but warning light would not go out. Cost about $200 for the = dealer to replace. Thankfully my 2003 does not have them. I'd probably dr= ive with black tape over the dash light so I wouldn't worry about it.
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