Towing two snowmobiles with a 98 Outback Legacy Wagon

Have you looked at your owners manual, that will explain many of the limits you are towing under. If I recall correctly, the Legacy is limited to 2000 lbs total weight, plus 200 lbs of hitch weight, plus the trailer must have brakes. Exceeding these limits will have ugly results on the life of your car. Additionally, the above rating is based on only having one person, and no cargo, in the car. If you have say four people and gear in the car, you must reduce the weight of the trailer (it's called the combined-gross-vehicle-weight or CGVW). I will bet the weight of two snowmobiles and trailer exceed your towing limits Lastly, -IF- you have an accident that is your fault, and the investigators determine that you were over weight you may face additional charges. I know of one case were the driver had manslaughter charges added due to his driving overweight.

How do you know the towing capacity is with driver only!!!!

The cargo capacity is what? Say 800lbs and that is with full passenger load!!!! Subtracting 200lbs tongue weight from the 800lbs, still gives plenty of room.

Do you have specific documentation stating the towing capacity is driver only!!! I have never been able to find this documentation, nor have I been able to find documentation stating the GCVW of the vehicle.

Etienne

Because I -asked-

If you think that you are asking for the same result some friends had. They asked the sales geek, they ended up with a Sub with it's tranny spread all over the freeway

Have you bothered to call Subaru, NOT a sales geek, you need to call Subaru and talk to an Customer Service Engineer.

Here's an additional hint, I do a -lot- of towing (but no longer with any of my Subaru's).

Two sleds on a two place trailer, plus two riders and gear shouldn't present any challenges for your Outback. Keep highway speeds reasonable; 60-65, and avoid any other situations that would put a sustained heavy load on the torque converter. Allow a bit more room for stopping. Trailer brakes are a good thing, but probably not necessary on a two-place (single axle) trailer; just take it easy. FWIW, my WRX wagon (5spd) hardly notices two machines on a trailer, this towing up and over 12,000ft mountain passes on a regular basis. No trailer brakes on it, either. I'd estimate my gross trailer weight, loaded, to be around 1200lb; tongue weight around 100-150lb, well within the cars rated capacity.

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101

Ralph,

Instilling fear into people is not very good.

For your interest, I did check with Subuaru, and the tow ratings do not go lower just because you have a full load of luggage and passenger. It is not I who is making up or imagining things!!!! It you trying to scare people from towing anything with their Subaru vehicles.

The numbers I quoted in my example were not make believe numbers, they are the true numbers for a Subaru Forester. Again in case you missed the number:

800lb Cargo Capacity, therefore subtracting 200lb tongue weight from that capacity still leaves plenty of room.

Knowing FACTs is, not stuff you make up

Whom did you talk to, name, contact info and -TITLE- please, I will make a guess they are not a Subaru engineer

Even given that, that leaves 600 lbs, subtract four adults (at 180 lbs average for men and women) that leaves a -MINUS- 40 lbs for your gear. The Subaru is a great vehicle (I have owned one or another for over 20 years), but they are ->NOT

Please read your Subaru manual, trailer brakes are a -requirement- for towing

In various European groups, I forget exactly what the name was, but it involved caravaning (Towing a camping trailer). The Forester was named Caravaning Tow Vehicle of the year, and that's with the 2.0 litre sold in Europe. Just because Americans always seem to need a 1ton Super-Mega-heavy-duty B'hemoth with duelies and V10 Super-Ultra-tech Engine to pick up 3 sheets of plywood once a year doesn't mean the rest of the world does. Most people buy way more car than they need. If the 98 is well maintained... tow away within the owners manual limitations.

No kidding. You would not believe how many F250 and 350 diesels you see around here. Most likley, a compact pickup would meet their needs. It is a status thing more than anything. It is also a horrendous waste of resources!

Hi Ralph, All!

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 05:47:11 -0700, Ralph E Lindberg wrote:

Required by whom? SOA? Papa Subaru-san? The same skilled engineering team that designed the cars ABS system? Yea, right; there's a definitive source for ya. For what it's worth, I don't think the WRX is even rated to tow; certainly Subaru doesn't (didn't anyway) offer a hitch for it. I fit a "factory" OBS hitch, and spliced into the wiring harness to get lights; d'ya suppose that the Subaru police will be out looking for me now . . . ;-) AFAIK, while there definitely "legal" requirements for towing rigs, trailer brakes are _not_ mandated on a small, single-axle trailer (class I - II ?). In fact, I can't recall ever seeing a "regular" flat-bed two place snowmobile trailer equipped with them; the 4 place ones usually are, and I'd suspect that the higher-end enclosed ones probably offer them as an option. The WRX brakes are more than up to the task of stopping my two place trailer; I've never experienced any symptoms of distress, but then I _do_ know how to drive a trailer thru the mountains. I'd suggest that the entry in the Subaru manual you're referring to is a CYA move, aimed at protection from litigation by C.T. Slicker, who's idea of braking is to slip the tranny into neutral at the top of the hill, and ride the binders to the bottom. And, yea, if you drive that way, you're gonna want trailer brakes. And life insurance. And, finally, prior to getting the WRX, I often towed the same trailer/snowmobile combo with my old 4X4 GL wagon. Took 2nd gear to get up the hill sometimes, but the brakes were never a problem. And the economy of 25MPG with a Subaru vs 11MPG using my Ford truck is pretty hard to refuse. Plus the Soobie is more comfortable. As always, YMMV (standard disclaimer).

ByeBye! S. Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101

While you make a good point, regardless of your brake capacity, your emergency stopping distances will always be longer without trailer brakes. Suppose you rear end someone while pulling this trailer w/ no brakes and all the occupants get whiplash. Some slick lawyer is gonna say that you did not follow the vehicle manufacturer's recomendations and will try to ream you a new one.

Stop being so pig headed.....

800lb cargo has nothing to do with passenger!!!!!! Since when do you subtract passenger weight from cargo capacity. Cargo capacity is CARGO>>>>>>>>

But since you asked, here is the text from the email I got back from Subaru:

Dear Etienne Lau:

Thank you for visiting the Subaru Web site and for your inquiry. We appreciate you taking the time to contact us.

We encourage you to review the Trailer Towing section of the 2001 Forester Owner's Manual for information about towing with your Subaru. There it advises that the maximum total trailer weight for your vehicle is 2,000 pounds with trailer brakes and 1,000 pounds without trailer brakes. These weight limits are the trailer weight plus the trailer's cargo load, and is independent of the passengers and luggage in the vehicle.

I hope this information is helpful to you, but should you have further questions, please let me know and I'll do my best to assist you further.

Best Wishes,

Natalie Cox Subaru of America, Inc. Customer Dealer Services E-Contact Group

I take it you can read, try reading the manual

No, but if your tranny fails, and you are still under warrenty, don't expect Subaru to repair it

If this is so Subaru is the -ONLY- manufacturer that doesn't count people as cargo weight

Thanks, I will was Ms Cox why she gave different answer then the Tech Rep I talked to

I suggest there is some truth here, also there is some BS.

I use my Subaru as a daily car, if I asked it to tow my current 12,000 lb trailer it would puke. While my F250 with a V10 handles it just fine (part of why a 5 year F250 has 30,000 miles, while a 10 year old Subaru has 130,000)

There's also the vehicle's GVWR which cannot be exceeded. It is the combination of vehicle + cargo + trailer -- basically, the weight of the entire package that's moving down the road. And there are individual axle weight limits. If your tongue weight + cargo weight + however much of the actual *car* is already being suspended by the rear axle exceeds this limit, then you're out of compliance with the rear axle load limit. And, believe it or not, your *tires* even have load limits. Insurance companies *have* been known to deny accident claims if it can be shown that any of these limits was exceeded, and the onus is on the operator of the vehicle to know these limits and comply with them.

FWIW, as long as you tow a commercially-built trailer (that's loaded properly -- not too much weight up front, nor too much in back) that's at or under the manufacturer's stated towing capacity and aren't carrying something like bags of concrete in the back of your car and are using OEM tires, you'll *probably* be under all of these limits. But if you're concerned about it, you should make sure.

HTH,

- Greg Reed

Generally longer with trailer brakes, too. You simply _must_ take this into account while towing; hence my original comments re. taking it easy, and leaving plenty of stopping room.

I would suggest that there is very rarely justification for rear-ending someone. If you do, and manage to hurt someone in the process, your butt is potentially in a world of hurt, regardless of whether you are towing a trailer, or whether the trailer had brakes. If council can prove that trailer brakes were a "legal" requirement on your rig, that's definitely gonna be another nail in your coffin. How much impact failing to follow recommendations from your owners manual would have I can't say, but it surely wouldn't help matters.

(Up on my soapbox . . .) In the end, regardless of what you are driving, it is ultimately your responsibility to maintain it in good (safe) working order, and to operate it in a safe manner. When towing, this means that you have to account for the effects of your trailer on the handling characteristics of your tow vehicle. Your best bet is to drive like a granny. Take it nice and easy, leave plenty of room between you and the vehicle in front of you, and leave plenty of room to manoeuver. Stay in the slow lane, relax, and let faster traffic flow around you as they see fit. If you follow these guide-lines, you are unlikely to find yourself in a situation where you need to use someone else's vehicle to slow down, or make course corrections. If you ("you" globally, not "you" specifically, Rob :-) are unwilling to accept this responsibility, please stay home, or take a cab. (Down offa the box.)

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101

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I can tell you, that from talking to someone that was in a similar situation that additional legal charges could follow. Here was their situation, they were towing and in a "their fault" accident where people died. The investigating officer told them that

-if- they had been exceeding any vehicular specification, like no trailer brakes, they could also have been charged with manslaughter.

So you are saying the people aren't cargo, OK, lets add the 800 lbs to

4 people at 600 lbs (which would only be an average of 150 lbs each). That would make the Subaru's gross carrying rating 1400 lbs, or well over 1/2 a ton.

You wouldn't happen to know the gross carrying rating of a small truck (like a Mazda, not a F150) would you? Happens that they (depending on year, etc) fall between 1000 and 2000 lbs.