Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

You are ignorant.

Reply to
jim
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You are wrong. And ignorant, arrogant, and an asshole. Please f*ck off.

nate

Reply to
N8N

You know you could have very easily and simply made a determination about whether the filter anti drain back valve was working. I suspect you didn't know how to do that or you didn't want to do that. Instead you chose to speculate and conjecture about what was happening. There isn't much evidence in your story to go on so I can see no good reason to believe your guess about the cause is correct.

-jim

Reply to
jim

I suspect that I *did* determine that the ADBV wasn't working, and had my diagnosis confirmed by others.

That's because you're an idiot, and like so many others you choose to bloviate about topics upon which you have little first hand experience but lots of book larnin' (and much of that incorrect or poorly understood) and therefore you think you're a heck of a lot more knowledgeable than you actually are.

To recap this whole sorry thread: Fram filters *demonstrably* have several known issues, and are clearly of the cheapest construction of all the "major brand" filters you're likely to see at your FLAPS (and are at or below the quality level of most house brands for that matter.) This is not arguable, it's fact. The only real question is "is it good enough to be acceptable." I say, why take the chance when clearly better filters are available at the same price? The fact that you have continued arguing against this for over a week *proves* you're an idiot.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Yeah A bunch of fellow story tellers on the internet. None of them ever saw your engine. And they are like you they wouldn't know what to look for if they had seen your engine.

I know from personal experience that the chrysler slant six did not have a problem with Fram filters. For one thing the engine itself had an anti drain back valve so by definition if your oil was leaking back from the oil filter the engine was not working as designed. But you did not have that problem. You just suppose that was the problem . There are a number of known mechanical problems that produce the exact symptoms you described. It wasn't the-miracle-of-the-fram-filter-removal that fixed your problem it was the removal of dirty oil and replacing it with clean oil that fixed your malfunctioning engine oil system.

There is no real evidence of any "known issues" The only evidence is a vocal minority of largely prejudiced people on the internet telling stories. The millions of engines using Fram filters are not developing the problems that vocal minority claims they all will. And of course a Fram filter is cheap. Most oil filters people put on cars are cheap. Probably every anti drain back valve in every filter you find in your FLAPS is molded in China and costs the manufacturer less than a dime a piece. Fram is not any different. There are $50 oil filters available if you want to buy something that is not cheap.

Fram makes more of the house brands than any other oil filter company.

No its silly statement you are saying Frams are better than Frams.

So your latest theory is that arguing with a fool makes you an idiot. Well that is better logic than anything else you have come up with.

-jim

Reply to
jim

On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:39:29 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Looks like I wasn't clear, so let me say it a different way. You hear clatter (or whatever you deem oil-related bad sounds) when you start your car. You blame it on the filter anti-drainback not working right. Basically a dry filter. A simple test to prove that is to replicate the conditions with a dry filter when you do an oil change. If all else if equal - temperature and time shut down, you should hear the same sound. Personally, I always change my oil warm, and usually have it done and running again within 1/2 hour or so. If you only hear the clatter after the engine is shut down for say 12 hours, you would have to leave it shut down for 12 hours after the oil change to replicate that condition. Seems you would hear the same noise after the oil change. But it's not that simple. What if you don't hear the noise after changing in a dry filter? That might indicate the anti-drainback valve isn't the problem. Maybe the old filter was clogged and delayed pressure build-up at the parts being lubed. Maybe the old filter developed some sort of cavitation or airlock issue as it aged. Anyway, Mr White's case is just inconclusive. I've heard plenty of transitory "rackets" when starting engines that had nothing to do with oil. Not saying it wasn't the filter. Just inconclusive to me. Not taking a stand on the Frams because I don't use them. But it's not real hard to test filters yourself if you set down some test parameters on paper and follow them diligently. I never will, because I've not had lube issues on my cars. If I did, I'd probably just try a few different filters to see if that helped, as some here have done. And I never fool around soaking a filter or pulling the ECU fuse. Can you imagine the Jiffy Lube guys pulling ECU fuses? hehe. New can of worms there.

--Vic

Reply to
Vic Smith

Except I know of cases where the problem STARTED with an oil and filter change. And cases where filters were changed immediately thereafter and the noise went away (with another Fram filter, even). They don't ALL leak - but in my experience too many did years back (I'm talking '70s and '80s) - and I never found a reason to go back to using them myself, or when I had any say what was going onto customer's vehicles. I believe Canadian Tire had Fram making some of their filters in '75/ '76 and we had issues with them over the couple months I worked there on my return from Africa. The lube guys would do an oil change, and a couple days later the car was in the shop with complaints of the oil light taking too long to go out, or valve noise on startup.

When I ran the service bays at the Shell station ( I was shop foreman

- 6 bay garage) we didn't use Fram filters - Shell filters were Kralinator, I believe , and we'd get customers coming in complaining of oil light taking too long to go out, or valve noise on startup. Asked the customer when it started, and when they last had an oil change - could be the oil had broken down/gone thin / been fuel diluted etc. If the oil had been changed recently and the oil felt/smelt good we'd check the filter.

If the filter was orange we'd change it first.

USUALLY solved the problem.

At the Esso station I ran we used Atlas Filters - made IIRC by Purolator.

Then at Toyota we used the Toyota supplied filters (Purolator or WIX) and when we ran out Mopar/AutoPar filters which were also made at that time by Purolator. The Chrysler dealer up the road was pretty agressive with their wholesale pricing and we used their filters on all the non-Toyota vehicles we serviced.

I likely replaced a few non-Fram filters for the same problem - but definitely not very many and I could not tell you what brand or on what car. On Toyota 3K engines I remeber we had a lot of issues with lazy oil pressure lights - which were USUALLY caused by the infamous "Oil Pisser" switch. If the switch wasn't wet, the filter was the next thing we looked at (filter was base down) The 8R and 18R engines were the same. On the T engines the filter was horizontal and the filters were less critical. Same with the M series and the 20r and 22r engines. On these engines it was USUALLY the "oil pisser" switch when oil lights were slow going off. They all had solid lifters, so valve clatter was not an issue. On the 8 and 18R series, the hydraulic timing chain tensioners would complain very loudly on dry starts - lots of chain rattle and not infrequently broken chain guides. Funny, virtually NEVER had problems on vehicles we did all the service on The early F had a remote mounted filter, base up and didn't need an anti-drain valve. (the old "stovebolt" Chevy engine made under licence)

Back "in the day" we ALWAYS pulled the coil wire and cranked the engine 'till the oil light went out or the needle moved. it was POLICY. Then we got those darn integrated ignition units on the Toyota " A" series engines - no coil wire - so we soon had to back down on "policy" - but it was still recommended that the engine NOT be allowed to come up to speed before the light went out. Crank it, and if the engine started, shut it off and crank it again if the light didn't go out right away.

Reply to
clare

And of course you were there saw it all and made your 'correct' diagnosis.

Just what is your relationship with Fram??

Reply to
bugalugs

No Chrysler made the correct diagnosis. And Chrysler engineers designed the engine so that what he supposes was happening can't happen.

I have used their filters for at least 40 years and never once seen any of the problems that various people are claiming are likely to happen with those filters.

But I'm not recommending Fram filters. I'm just sick and tired of seeing lies and superstitions and fantasy being passed off as fact and knowledge. An engine that is clean on the inside means whatever you are doing for oil changes is working. An engine that has sludge, gum or black goo on the inside means whatever you are doing for oil and filter change is not working. And that is pretty much all you need to know about oil changes.

If you take the typical modern engine and use the cheapest oil and filter and change it as the car maker advises you will be able to take that engine apart at 100K miles and find that the engine is still clean on the inside and you will be able to still see the factory cross hatch on the cylinder walls. The fact is most engines today will outlast the rest of the car. The door hinges, the glass, the upholstery, the suspension, the electrical system etc are all going to make you want to get rid of the car long before the engine will.

-jim

Reply to
jim

Odd then that both the Fram and Wix applications for that engine list an integral ADBV. I don't remember the Fram no. but the Wix no. is

51515. look it up.

nate

Reply to
N8N

Your not keeping up with the folklore. Most of the Fram bashers I have read say that Fram made good filters back then. According to all the folklore I have read on the internet it was only after the companies ownership changed in the 90's that the filter became cheap and unreliable. Before that according to most folklorists they were good filters.

You missed the point of the post you were responding to for the second time.

But all of this is ancient history and not particularly useful to most people today. It may interest you to know that in the period from 1950's to the 90's almost every multigrade dino oil on the market gave inadequate protection if the engine oil temp exceeded 240F. That means if your engine overheated you were basically screwed. And the affect of heat on the oil was not temporary in most cases it was permanent. that means if you didn't change the oil immediately following the overheating incident you were doubly screwed. The fact that you have horror stories that revolve around engine lubrication problems from 30 years ago is not at all surprising. But what does this ancient history have to do with today?

OK so you have been superstitious for a long time. I have never seen a filter of any type cause problems in a clean engine. I've never seen a dirty engine that wasn't in a death spiral. The fact that you were very good at treating the symptoms and ignoring the root causes of problems is not very impressive.

That's because you are superstitious. You see and remember what you want to see and remember don't see and remember what you don't want to see and remember. Take the guy with the motocraft filter that had missing threads. That story till now was mostly forgotten. Had that been a story about a Fram filter, you would by now be able to google and find that story on 50 web pages. All I see is evidence that you are not the only one. There more than just you that predisposed to selectively remembering things.

Yes and this means what? Again all i see is someone who is only interested in symptoms not root causes. Foe example, take the case of an engine with hydraulic lifters. If the engine and oil is kept clean then the check valve in each valve lifter should keep the lifter filled while the oil is being changed. In a properly working engine you really shouldn't be getting valve clatter when you start the engine after the oil change. It is only in dirty and/or worn engines that lifters will bleed down wile you are doing an oil change.

Well that is mostly just superstition. There are plenty of engines that use cheap oil and filter and they get changed and started up after the oil change without any special procedure and the engine ends up lasting longer than the rest of the car. There is no evidence that your precautions would make any difference to the life of the engine.

-jim

Reply to
jim

Yeah, my brother-in-law has a high volume repair shop in San Francisco and he gets all the marketing people from the different brands coming to his shop trying to sell him parts, including filters. He has a strict rule of "no orange filters" having been burned by them in the past.

The problem is that if a shop does and oil change, and their choice of oil or filter damages the customer's engine, the shop is liable. If you use the proper oil and good quality filter then you have a credible defense. Even when Toyota and Honda dealers were not using the recommended oil because it wasn't in their bulk tanks, he would buy cases of the oil in bottles, at significant expense, because he wouldn't use the 5W30 bulk oil from his tank in a vehicle that called for something else.

He buys higher quality jobber filters (which are no more expensive than Fram filters) as well as keeping a stock of Honda and Toyota filters for the customers that want them (at no extra charge, even though they cost him $2 more).

It's always amusing to hear the stories of naive repair shop customers that try to save money by doing stupid things. Like the guy that was going to fix his over-the-limit emissions himself, then come back for a free retest. Instead of paying $40 to someone that knew what to do, and could test that the repair worked before retesting and sending the data to Sacramento, the customer came back for the retest and had gone from barely failing, to becoming a gross polluter. Then he was willing to pay the $40, but it was too late because the smog check machine automatically sends the test results to the state, and once you're a gross polluter you have to go to a special smog check station and then you have to get yearly smog checks instead of every two years for certain number of years. Saving $40 cost the guy at least $300.

Reply to
SMS

I know of a guy that knew someone whose relative had somewhat of a similar situation with ... Ah, each of those anonymous, apocryphal anecdotes are so very enlightening, not to mention humorous and entertaining, aren't they?

Reply to
Heron McKeister

Geez don't you guys ever get tired of saying my superstitions is supported by someone else who is equally superstitious. It is not as if there aren't plenty of repair shops run by people who aren't superstitious. How do you think Fram got to be the #1 oil filter manufacturer?

No if your fictional scenario would ever become reality it would be oil filter manufacturer that is liable. You are talking about someone who does not even allow any one to talk to him about a particular oil filter brand. He is just plain superstitious.

Honda filters are made by Fram.

And this proves that you can throw just about any irrelevant fact into the discussion???

-jim

Reply to
jim

That is not odd . The filter is used on other engines also. Probably at the time the slant six was introduced it was the only filter chrysler used.

-jim

Reply to
jim

Advertising. Lots and lots of advertising.

When was the last time you saw an ad for Wix filters? And yet they seem to be selling quite well.

nate

Reply to
N8N

The early slant six (long filter) was PH8A. The short one was was PH43. BOTH have antidrainback valves according to their spec. Fram USED to make a PH8, which I believe was the same as the PH8A but without the antidrainback. Don't think it's been made since the 8A came out back in the early sixties. And I've had a lot of Slant 6 engines apart and cannot recall EVER seeing a backflow prevention device in the filter standpipe.

And just think about it for a moment. The oil comes in the OUTSIDE of the filter, through the ring of holes around the base. The drainback valve covers THOSE holes to keep oil from running back out of the filter. The standpipe goes in the CENTER of the filter, which is the OUT LET of the filter. How could a backflow prevention valve work in the standpipe? CAN'T - That's how. There is no backflow prevention valve on a slant six engine. PERIOD. It REQUIRES the backflow valve equipped oil filter to prevent the oil from draining out to the pan on every shut-down. If the backflow valve fails it takes several seconds of running to develop oil pressure - and on a cold day after a hot shut-down, it can be well over 10 seconds.

I've owned and driven the crap out of several slant sixes in my lifetime, and the rest of the family had quite a few more, which I serviced at least part of their lives.(except for my kid brother's , which he looked after because by then he was also a mechanic) Several of them went over 200,000 miles. All of them but one at one time or another had drainback / dry restart issues.

My last slant six was the '74 Dart Sport - and by that time I had given up on using fram filters. Cannot remember it ever having the "delayed oil light" problem except when the oil pressure switch leaked

- and then it would come on even on the road (when you came to an idle) as well as taking time to go off on startup.

Reply to
clare

Jim, you don't know me. You don't know my history and reputation as a mechanic and troubleshooter.

I FIXED problems. I had a lot of other shops and mechanics that would call me up to figure out how to fix problems they could not solve.

Kid brother the same - and he's still wrenching and he's over 50. I quit actively wrenching for health reasons some years back.

I still get calls to figure out what is wrong, particularly on older vehicles that young mechanics have never seen before, but also for electronic and electrical problems.

I am not superstitious.

It's not valve lifters as much as chain tensioners that rattle on startup if oil pressure comes up in a reasonable time. 10 seconds of running with no oil pressure WILL make hydraulic lifters clatter - but the Toyota engines I spoke of did NOT have hydraulic lifters.

Jim,

You OBVIOUSLY do not know what you are talking about. Bet you are not a mechanic either.

Mabee a parts changer, at best.

Reply to
clare

Especially because they are true!

Reply to
SMS

Fram may be the #1 selling after-market retail filter, but it'd be very rare to find a repair shop using them. Most repair shops use jobber filters or OEM filters. The jobber filters have names that you wouldn't recognize.

Reply to
SMS

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