$234 Oxygen Sensor

Post cat O2 monitors. With cat replacement costs commonly approaching $1000.00 and above, this is the prime area for cheating, especially since there is no apparent performance loss.

True, but I didn't qualify my statements about cheating to just the average tinkerer.

We're at 10 years for OBD2, lots of that fleet are long past warranty. I have a customer with an 03 Montana, 175,000 miles on it.

**(note: the above should have read sufficient, not "insufficient") (can't type for shit tonight:) (damn Camry door latches:)~ That and IM failures based upon PO4xO codes (essentially the same thing) even though the tailpipe is clean enough to pass an IM-240. Other than the performance warranty, there is no real difference in federal standards between a 95 Camry and a 96 Camry other than the fact that the 95 can pass an IM test with a lit MIL while the 96 won't.

OK, rereading this with substituted wording, I am on the same page as you here. Typical tailpipe samples would have you believe that a just-failed catalytic converter (via OBDII standards) still yields a clean running car. Of course it is much cheaper and easier to implement generic OBDII testing than to use the expensive, accurate IM240 dynos -- that have already been put into place years ago. (AAAHHRRGGG!!!)

At least MO now has a waiver in place for transmission related DTCs. Owners must present an RO from an MMRT-staffed shop stating that the DTCs are purely trans related and give a descriptive estimate to repair said DTCs. They must also have NO other DTCs or unset monitors to receive this waiver. The process sounds like a runaround, but I like the concept.

Gee, I don't have a problem with them... :)

Seriously, if you ever need Toyota insight/info, don't hesitate to drop me a line. I have T.I.S. at home as well if you need a real wiring diagram.

Toyota MDT in MO

Yes, I go to a GoodYear tire place for service, they can fix most any problem. I get oil changes for $20.

They charged $95 for the O2 sensor and $88 for diagnostics. The rest was labor and tax, about $50 more. What bothered me was the diagnostic test that took only about 10 minutes. At $88, for 10 minutes, they are charging $528 per hour which seems a little high.

I might figure out how to do it myself, but I have no interest in auto mechanics. I would rather do other things.

-Bill

Based on my assumption that their labor rate is $88/hour - (guessing that from all of the data you supplied) I think you got charged a slight bit more diagnostic time than most shops would for this particular issue. They probably have a blanket charge of one hour for all MIL on diagnostics, but many shops start at .5 hour minimum, and tack on another .5 for installation.

My biggest concern here is that you are trusting of a Goodyear chain tire store, which is a trust that doesn't seem to be based on any solid history of diagnostic competence. Your particular Goodyear store may very well have good techs, but the overwhelming majority of time chain tire stores hire subpar diagnosticians; they prefer (and only pay the rates for) parts changers. I would suggest you find a good dealer or independent repair shop that is NOT a tire chain store for vehicle repairs. Get suggestions from friends and family. If someone highly recommends a particular shop based on multiple visits, they most likely have never been screwed over there.

Your condition of a bad O2 sensor was a slam dunk diagnosis THIS TIME. An Autozone employee would likely have gotten it right. In the future, the tire chain store may lead you down a long path of misdiagnosis and blind parts swapping at your expense.

BTW, in response to your original post: my school of thought on preventative O2 sensor replacement for your particular situation (you require a shop to do all work) is to leave them alone until the check engine light comes on due to an O2 sensor related issue. (If it ain't broke, don't fix it)

Toyota MDT in MO

Egg-zactly. Higher thru put, low que count, less wear and tear on the equipment equals bigger profits and favorable press.

Very good implementation.

I'll bet you're a whole lot younger than I am. Probably don't wear bi-focals either.

I may take you up on that offer. Had a bunch of Toyota training back in the mid 80s when Chevy badge engineered the Nova, so Toys feel as familiar as GM, Ford and Chrysler do, plus I've owned three Toyotas, an 85 Tercel 4x4 wagon, an 88 Camry FWD and an 88 Camry Alltrac. All 4 cylinders, all as reliable as a 2X8 floor joist.

You actually have that backwards. The Mazda pick-ups currently sold in the US are rebadged Ford Rangers. THey are built in Ford plants, using mostly "Ford" parts. In other area of the world, they still sell "real" Mazda trucks. For instance in much of the rest of the world (outside of the Americas), Ford sells rebadged Mazda Trucks - see

, , And why do you think a Mazda sensor would be cheaper?

Ed

I agree with you on this. There are exceptions. Oldtimers here probably remember Kevin Mouton, who was employed at or ran a tire store garage, IIRC.

Kevin was certainly a quality individual. Dont know what happened to him.

Thanks for the links and info. Guess I was wrong on that one. Our company "run-about" is a Ranger. Its a good little truck. I used to have a 93 Ford Probe 2.5. Many of its parts were cheaper at Ma= zda. =

Some were cheaper at Ford. I usually called both dealers before buying t= he part.

Without getting into personalities at this point, there is a chasm often between the customer and the garage.

Customer may have been the victim of mindless partschangers, expensive bills, and shops which do not professionally perform the jobs they are being paid to do.

The Garage, on the other hand, has had experiences with customers who do nothing but bitch, are never satisfied, and want the work done for nothing.

The majority, I believe, of customers are reasonable people if treated reasonably. Mechanics are probably just as honest and reasonable.

Five minutes of honest conversation between mechanic and customer could go a long way to stopping problems before they get to the fist shaking stage. The customer needs to know the options, upside and downside, and the schedule. The mechanic needs to hear what the customer wants, what the car is doing.

Nobody wants an unpleasant surprise when the bill is presented and the car is driven out the door.

The real question =isn't= whether or not *The Shop* has to charge a certain rate in order to cover *Costs,* as this can fairly easily be calculated.

The Real Question is whether or not "The Problem" needs to be serviced by a shop to begin with, or if it falls into the DIY category.

Obviously, somebody has to pay for the shop equipment and space every time they visit, even if they're only getting their tires rotated.

I am suggesting that for a simple task like switching out a known bad O2 sensor with a known good O2 sensor, the services of a *shop* aren't required.

Someone pointed out that many people can't do this for/by themselves, or won't for one reason or another. Then, they are going to have to pay to send Mr Goodwrench's kid to college.

If they have the simple tools and a knowledge of the techniques involved in an O2 exchange, then the high price for Shop Services can be avoided.

Which brings the statement to the level of: 'I think it is outrageous that people pay hundreds and even thousands of dollars for work they should be able to do themselves.' But as we've already established, working under the hood isn't possible in many circumstances for Joe Car Owner, for a multitude of reasons.

Lg

Well, ignorance is an expensive luxury, Lawrence.

I know it isn't just that. I used to live on the second floor of an apartment, and during the wintertime, working on the car was out of the question, what with the snow, freezing cold, slush so you couldn't get under the vehicle ( the car was parked on the street ). OK then, that is an extenuating circumstance you couldn't do much about...until:

Somebody got the idea of opening up DIY Shops, wherein they supply the tools, the bay, the work area, and the owner does the work and supplies the parts. I imagine the insurance premiums put those places out of business, as I can't seem to find them around anymore, not that I ever used one.

So the *trick* for me was in the Autumn, while the weather was still reasonable, to do all the preventive maintenance I could and hope the vehicle would last through the winter season without needing anything more than fuel and oil.

So instead of using Comboverfish's "if it ain't broken, don't fix it," I performed PROACTIVE maintenance, replacing things BEFORE they broke and left me stranded on the side of the road, one good example being replacing radiator hoses that had gone soft and mushy.

Fishman, if you're reading this, you're a nutter. Take that any way you like. Preventive maintenance is never wasted money. Getting a $150 tow to a shop, and another $150 bill to replace a few hoses that should have been replaced BEFORE they blew out, is definitely a waste of money. But I guess you have so much of that ( along with Ego ), that you have enough to burn.

Lg

No he's not.

Don't you know how it was intended?

He never suggested that it was.

I thought the subject was oxygen sensors.

Didn't see any ego from COF.

Preventive maintenance is something for the motorist to learn, not the mechanic. Every mechanic I know would be perfectly happy to spend the rest of his career doing PM work, think about it, no lost time during diagnosis, minimal special parts ordering, etc. The motorist however only wants to know about putting the key in and driving it, to hell with the mundane prospect of maintenance.

Well, I've had good luck with them so far. They fixed another sensor problem with the antilock brakes and also a failed alternator. I went to the Ford dealer to get new tires that were recalled a few years ago (Firestone wilderness something or other) and the mechanic advised me that the brakes needed changing at 36K miles. I now have over 100K miles on the original factory brakes and they still don't need service. So much for Ford dealer mechanics. They are mostly full of BS.

-Bill

I don't think the insurance premiums put those places out of businesss. Hell the U-pullit/U-pick wrecking yards are quite popular these days, and those are far less safe.

What I think did them in is that vehicles over the years have got more complex requiring a much more serious approach to repair on them. I think a lot fewer people are doing casual repairs on their cars, the ones who are serious about doing them are serious about setting up the area to do them in.

Ted

Neil, you exhibit an almost perverse pleasure in kindly correcting RAT's most vile and inaccurate poster. While I hope that this is done to give future search results some credo, I feel that his posts are ripe for being ignored as they stand. This said, your contribution is always appreciated no matter what.

Toyota MDT in MO

Another *service tech* with a bug up his ass. Why don't you find a job you like.

Lg

I would pay the $75 per hour to watch. That is how you learn things. Of course, I wouldn't *pester* you, but would find it really interesting to see how the shop does ( or doesn't ) do things.

I know I should have been watching when a mouth-breather turned my rotors into barber poles. A re-surfaced rotor is supposed to be smooth as a baby's ass. These rotors came out looking like barber shop poles. And I _paid_ $$$ for that.

NEVER AGAIN.

Lg

The only "bug up his ass" is you Larry

Why don't you find a job?