87 Dakota feedback carb -- help, I'm drowning

Yes, I'm drowning in sorrow for my ailing 87 Dak... and because I have to pass a smog test before the end of the month.

Where to begin?? Well, it started with stalling at stops, first when stopping going downhill, then stopping level, then slowing down with foot off the accelerator. Adjusting the idle speed higher would cause the engine sometimes to surge at idle and other times to idle at idle.

I then rebuilt the carb. This is when I discovered the feedback solenoid. I got up to speed on the system through cruising around the net and learned some diagnostic techniques, including measuring the duty cycle of the solenoid with a high impedance meter, which I went out and bought. I also have the Haynes manual -skimpy- and bought a subscription to Alldata's online manual -less skimpy.

So here is what I have discovered. The solenoid works okay. It responds to 12 volts as it should.

When reading the duty cycle from a cold start, the computer begins controlling the solenoid immediately and tends to close off gas flow through it as the engine warms up. The duty cycle percentage starts below 10 and gradually increases to over 90. In between, the duty cycle fluctuates around 50% for a short time.

This means that the solenoid jet starts mostly open and ends up mostly closed. With foot off the accelerator, the scale goes to under 3, meaning the solenoid jet is fully opened. This on a zero to 100 scale. When in warmup mode, I have no drivability problems

At some point after about 10 minutes, the duty cycle goes to 20% and sticks there, plus or minus

1/2 of one percent and this is when the stalling at stops occurs.

One would think that the computer

  1. is trying to compensate for a stuck lean condition
  2. has fallen back on a limpalong mode
  3. is broken

When this occurs, disconnecting the feedback solenoid cures the drivability problem completely. No stalling, no surging and more power than the damn thing has ever had. I could live with that except for two reasons: smog test and compulsion to fix things.

Along about this time I sprung for a new O2 sensor, seeing as I could not recall ever having changed it and I am the original owner. No change in symptoms. I hooked up the meter to the O2 sensor to see what it was reporting to the computer in both "solenoid on" and "solenoid off" mode.

The readings were very similar, if not the same: very high voltage output, about .95 volts, with the throttle open and very low, almost none with the throttle closed. Of course, these readings are after warmup. From a cold start until the duty cycle of the solenoid sticks at 20%, the voltage does fluctuate in a midrange as if the system was attempting to adjust the mix. But this only lasts until warmup.

The air pump and switch valve appear to be working correctly. I clamped off air to the upstream and nothing changed so I unclamped it. The engine temp sensor works okay.

Okay, I will end here. If you have any insight, I sure could use some.

Jack

Reply to
Jack
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a smog test

You've done a good job of troubleshooting and an excellent job of conveying your findings. Unfortunately that makes it difficult to add anything helpful!

First, it seems that the air/fuel feebck system does work properly until the engine warms up. That would seem to eliminate the components directly involved in that system (O2 sensor, solenoid, etc.)

there, plus or minus

I think it is the limpalong mode.

problem completely.

could live with that

Disconnecting the solenoid makes the engine run moderately rich, which makes it run strong.

Here's my WAG (wild a$$ guess):

Your EGR valve isn't closing completely. The computer doesn't check for this until the engine warms up. Then the computer senses the EGR vale is malfunctioning and goes into limpalong, but leakage through the EGR valve throws the mixture out of whack from the fixed limpalong setting and the engine runs crappy.

Tim

Reply to
Tim Brown

Thanks for the reply, Tim. I look forward to taking the EGR valve out of the equation to see what happens. Then computer does not monitor it directly, but a stuck EGR valve at idle would be suspect as the problem that I am having occurs at idle. The only problem in this direction is that, at idle, the mixture control solenoid is not activated and should be fully retracted in the open position. I am really seeing this for the first time as I write it. Disconnecting the solenoid solves the stalling-at-idle problem. This action guarantees that the solenoid is fully opened at idle. BUT... the system is designed for the solenoid to be fully opened at idle ANYWAY. The system reverts to open loop at idle. I see it happen on the duty cycle meter when the solenoid is connected. At idle, the duty cycle drops to 2% or less indicating, for practical purposes, fully opened. But obviously, something is not going according to plan.

Tim, you really helped me grapple with this problem a bit more effectively. Below are some more thoughts and observations that I wrote earlier. I have to put it aside for now, though.

Thanks a million, Jack

The mixture c>

a smog test

From what I can gather, the computer relies on a set of pre-programmmed instructions to control the air/fuel mixture until the engine is hot enough enought to heat the the O2 sensor to the point where it is a reliable source of info on the amount of O2 in the exhaust gases. Apparently the preprogrammed instructions are to start with a rich mix and gradually lean it out, as that appears to be what is taking place according to the readings of the duty cycle meter.

Perhaps you are right and the problem lies outside the feedback system. One thing that I recall reading is the the system will respond to a problem that continues to exist for more than x minutes, 5, I think. Whether it just sets a code or actually changes how it responds to input, I can't recall. Life, especially work, keeps interrupting my troubleshooting efforts.

there, plus or minus

problem completely.

could live with that

Reply to
Jack

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