The A/C in the above mentioned car is not working as well as it once did. We've noticed a bit of a decline in cooling ability over the last year or so.
Took the car to the dealership to see what they could do. Bad news: There is a teeny tiny leak at a seam in the condenser, so it needs to be replaced.
Since they cannot legally just "top up" the system until all leaks are fixed, the repair bill would be $1,240 Cdn. Plus tax.
Would I save much on labor costs if I had the dealer evacuate the system, installed the new condenser and dryer myself, then brought it back to them for refilling? Is it even possible to do things this way?
I don't know of any legal issues with your plan, but I'm no authority on that sort of thing. You might find a shop who will "take" your R134a for free in the process of recovery. I'm just guessing here, but hopefully an indy shop would atleast do it for a small fee if they kept the R134a . It doesn't take long or require any skill to recover a system, other than knowing to check for refrigerant type and contaminants before connecting the equipment. Smart or stupid, I seriously doubt that many shops take that precaution on a regular basis anyway.
You will really only "need" (pay) someone with a vacuum pump and gauges to charge the system. It can be charged by weight using cans with about +/- 2 oz accuracy, which is within the spec range (as listed on a yellow underhood label, usually on the radiator support area). Anyone moderately competent at A/C service can do this.
The condenser should come out the front easily once you remove the small front grille, hood latch, latch support, horn, and top radiator support member.
Perhaps not the best place to take it. Dealership is great for warranty work and stuff that the average shop can't fix but there is no sense paying a dealerships outlandish fees for something as commonplace as a/c work.
I don't know Canadian laws but lots of places in the states tell you that same thing while it isn't necessarily true. I try to be an environmentally friendly person but if it comes down to 1200 or a can of 134a every year I'll just get the can of 134a put in. Can you legally buy the stuff off the shelf up there like we can here? If not I'm sure there are plenty of shops that understand the economics of such a repair.
If you decide to have it fixed the part itself is about $160us. Figure a couple hours labor and all the other associated stuff that goes with the job an a realistic cost for this repair would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $500us.
It is possible but.... If it even has to be replaced then I would find a good a/c shop and have them do the work. You don't want to have it start leaking again a couple of months later and have to go through all the costs again.
I'm not a big fan of those cans as you can't see the high and low side pressures but they are bought everyday by people I can guarantee have a lot less common sense than you and they don't screw it up....
Depending on how bad the leak is I'm sure you can find a shop that will just top it off for you if you are worried about doing it yourself.
In this heat you'll have a very hard time over charging it. I would certainly try the do it yourself route for at least on can and see how long it lasts. Also, Chevy has for years said you can't charge a system based on pressure but should do it by feeling the temperatures of the inlet and outlet pipes of the evaporator. You can do the same on the Tercel most likely, they should both be about the same temp and the temp should be cool to cold feeling. But realistically, just buy a DIY kit and put as much of the can in as you can and see how it works. If you have noticed it's stopped working well it's almost guaranteed that it's a can low and you'll be pretty safe giving it a shot.
And like the other poster said, it's not illegal to recharged a system with a small leak. The shops tell you it is because they want to do as much $work$ as they can drum up and they make a lot more selling you part$s and labor then they do just selling labor for a recharge.
Very little. While someone with your intelligence and determination could easily master A/C service with a little study/practice, someone with your intelligence would also know not to mess with A/C work without any prior learning or experience. The "kit" has a charging hose. That's it. Well, maybe a crappy low side gauge on the "high end" kit. Let someone with $500 invested in a proper pump, good gauges, and the experience to do it right and safely charge your system. You will probably pay about one hour of labor (sorry, labour). That sounds worth it to me, unless you want to really take the time to learn A/C safety and theory, then buy a minimum of decent equipment. Another thing to look for -- there are probably kits out there with some BS combination of dye, oil, and sealer in the refrigerant.
This miracle A/C kit can't create a vacuum on your system. It won't display system pressures. What's the kit manufacturer's stance on those issues?
I don't know all of the details in your case, but simply put, just replacing a condenser and drier, then evacuating and charging the system (labour only) should not cost $700 US, Can, or Euro.
Tegger wrote in news:Xns996392C878018tegger@207.14.116.130:
An update, July 5th...
There may not be any leak at all.
I took the car back to the Toyota dealer to have the tech show me exactly where the leak was. The tech points to a dirty spot of oily rustproofing on the upper left corner of the condenser and said "that's the leak". That dirty rustproofing is everywhere in the engine bay, not just on the corner of the condenser. He has no other evidence of a leak. The spot looks old (which it is) and is dry, not wet.
It turns out:
1) He checked the pressures and found them a bit low.
2) He visually examined the condenser and found the black spot of crud.
3) He evacuated the system.
That. Was. It.
He did not repressurize the system, adding dye, to confirm the leak. He did nothing but remove the refrigerant. He did no other testing.
According to him, he cannot legally recharge the system if there is a leak, even just to test it. I said there is no leak, there is only a SUSPECTED leak. He says he will not risk his A/C license testing a system he is convinced is leaking.
I then took it straight to an independent import specialist. This guy gave the spot a look and said that in his opinion it was not likely to be a leak. We are booked for Monday to have him repressurize it (with dye) and check for a leak.
Your Toyota tech is an IDIOT. If you paid for what he did you should tell them you want your money back. He utterly failed as an A/C tech. He should have tested pressures, IF a leak was suspected then use a sniffer around the common spots and see what shows up. Find the leak, Then evacuate the system and repair it. If you don't find the leak recharge with dye and cycle the system. Then look again. Find it and evac and repair. NOT real difficult.
Good luck on Monday. Sounds like you might have found a better shop. I can't hear his side of the story so I hate to think poorly of that mechanic but it sounds like he is trying to separate you from your money.
All car a/c systems leak to a certain extent. On an enclosed electrical a/c system all the connections are soldered and the motor is an integral part of the compressor so there is no reason for them to leak. I have a friend who is still running a window unit a/c that was installed in 1964 and it still works as well today as it did the day it was installed. On a car system you have to have rubber hoses so that things can move and the individual pieces are sealed with double o-ring fittings so they can easily be disassembled for service. The mobile a/c compressor has a drive shaft running through the case because it has to be driven via the engine drive belt. All these places leak a teeeny tiny bit of refrigerant so it isn't unrealistic to think that a 7 or 8 year old car needs half a can of refrigerant
I'm certain the system has leaked out some, otherwise you would not have experienced a performance loss. There are other possibilities, but you just mentioned that the original guy said pressures were lower than normal. Sounds like a system at about 1/2 to 2/3 charge to me.
I find most "condenser" leaks (barring high-speed road debris damage) to be right around the pipe fittings. I can never get these "leaks" to indicate with a sniffer, and they are typically of a very small diameter of residue. My assumption is that since these locations suffer great temperature swings and are about the thinnest, weakest spots in the system, they are prone to expansion and vibration (IOW you'll never catch them leaking, and the leak is very minor).
The most likely culprit of your very slow leak over 8 years is your expansion valve. If it is leaking that slowly, I would just ignore it; install a drier, then evac and charge the system. Your refrigerant is already recovered, so you're 1/3 of the way there.
Why did he recover? Did you authorize the shop to remove your refrigerant at that time?
He may tell you the same things that I am saying. Better still though, he will actually see the car and not just guess from experience as I am.
Comboverfish wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
I'll just have to wait until Monday, I guess.
I did NOT authorize anybody to evacuate the system, and nobody told me this was being done.
The tech and the Service Advisor both told me that, according to Canadian law, if a car is brought in and there is even the suspicion of a leak, the system must be evacuated before the car is taken back by the customer. I find that hard to believe, considering the independent was quite willing to do his own diagnostics, with dye and all.
It probably won't tell you much, but I took some photos of the area in question:
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The grunge buildup on the condenser is only on the left side. The grunge buildup on everything else is all over the place. That's 3 years of indiscriminate "drippy" rustproofing.
Sorry to hear that you are having all these problems with your AC.
I actually don't even own/drive a car, so all my knowledge about AC systems is rather peripheral. However, I do know a little bit about the refrigerant regulation in Canada and in Ontario.
First of all there are two types of refrigerants that OEMs used in automotive systems:
R12 (CFC) this is ozone depleting stuff and is regulated in Canada (and in the US) on the federal level. Since 1994 all new AC systems no longer use R12. In Ontario refilling a R12 system is prohibited even if it is leak free.
R134a (HFC) is non-ozone depleting gas but has a high green house potential (GWP) and in Canada it is regulated on the Provincial level.
In Ontario, Ministry of Environment regulates the use of R134a -- there are VERY steep fines involved in violating their regulations.
You can see a summary of their regulations on their website at:
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As you can see from their FAQ a shop is under NO OBLIGATION and SHOULD NOT remove refrigerant from a leaking system. However, they are forbiden from refilling or topping off a system that they suspect is leaking.
However, they are fully allowed to refill the system for the purposes of testing -- that is covered in the FAQ. If you want to dive into the legaleeze of all the applicable regulations you can see the actual regulation on the e-laws website.
In Ontario there are certain flammable alternative refrigerants that are available for purchase over-the-counter in some automotive stores (PartsSource, etc)
You can see info about these types of refrigerants on:
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I would strongly urge you NOT to use any of these refrigerants because they are highly flammable (i.e. basically a mixture of propane and/or butane). Thus if you have a leak in the evaporator and there is a spark you may have an explosion in the passenger compartment.
Though, R134a is available for sale over-the-counter in most US states including NY for a nominal cost, but I would not advise it bringing it to Canada as it would expose you to environmental fines which can be quite substantial.
the system, repair it yourself, and then have the shop leak test it and refill it.
Again, I do not have first hand knowledge of any of these matters, just some info I came across years ago.
snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote in news:1183756346.082422.55070 @n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
$20,000 per occurrence, the Toyota dealership tech told me...
Excellent link! A printout of this will accompany me should the independent shop find no leak.
Looks like, at the very least, the Toyota dealership tech is quite unfamiliar with the law.
Legally, his removal of my refrigerant was theft, since I did not give permission for it to be removed.
Moreover, it appears his license was in no jeopardy of any kind had he left the existing refrigerant in place.
His ONLY claim to having done things right is to check the pressures and visually examine the system for "large" oil leaks. He found the same sort of crud on the left side of the condenser that appears over most of the rest of the engine compartment, which is what led him to condemn the system.
Federal law does not prescribe any specific leak testing that would involve dyes or sniffers, and he did not perform any such tests.
snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote in news:1183756346.082422.55070 @n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
Update July 09/07:
The car is fixed. There was no leak.
The independent shop determined that the Toyota dealership tech misidentified the crud on the condenser. It was far too dry and crumbly to have been oil leaking from the condenser.
The shop recharged the system along with some dye, let it run for a half- hour, then checked for evidence of leaks. None were found.
The Toyota dealership later refunded me the cost of the original work, plus the value of the refrigerant that was incorrectly taken from me. Once I convinced them that a mistake had been made, they were good about it.
Thanx for letting us know how it turned out. It's always a little aggravating to spend a lot of time with a person on some issue and then never hear the resolution. Kind of like reading everything but the last chapter in a murder mystery.
Steve B. wrote in news:313693hlunjkmh7ho579barc06lllqpu4a@
4ax.com:
I forgot to mention that the Toyota tech had originally removed .51 lbs of refrigerant from the system. The system holds about one pound total, so it was at half-volume.
I was told the A/C system will naturally leak at a rate of roughly one ounce per year. So after eight years you would expect this '99 car's system to have about eight ounces left in it, which is just about what it did have.
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