Automakers continue to quietly void warranties if you use E 15 gas.

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JR wrote in news:45a554ec-812a-49b9-a1b8-3f3801dea0d7 @googlegroups.com:

Well, my gas cap says right on it not to use anything over E10, and the pumps all say "may contain up to xx% alcohol", so I'd have no excuse for using E15.

Reply to
Tegger

How could they tell, unless you had the excess ethanol in the tank when it came into the workshop? To monitor the car for whole warranty period, what sensors could discriminate ethanol from hydrocarbons?

Reply to
bruce56

If the hoses have all turned to goo and are leaking, there's a sign that some improper fuel was used.

The problem is that elastomers in seals and hoses are often not stable in high concentrations of ethanol.

Now, I'm not surprised if someone runs E15 through their '72 Ford and the jets need to be redrilled and the carb seals all fail. This was a big deal when gasohol was first introduced during the energy crisis of the seventies.

But I'm kind of shocked that any car being made today uses materials that aren't stable in ethanol.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

It is actually very easy to tell just from the engine data.

Straight gas will run lower numbers on enrichment both long and short term than E10. O2 numbers are different for straight gas and E10. You will also see different contaminants in the oil and carbon deposits inside the engine.

The way most ECMs are mapped they cannot richen the mix enough to compensate for the E15. That causes excess heat in the cylinders, pre-ignition becomes a big problem and you end up with a destroyed engine.

Reply to
Steve W.

It's not the materials like that that fail. It's actually hard parts that fail due to the lean mix. Burnt valves, damaged heads, piston damage are all showing up.

Reply to
Steve W.

That's pretty shameful. What if they are run on super-low-octane Mexican gas? I would expect competent engineers to design systems to deal with such things seeing that they are only software changes today with no need to swap jets by the side of the road.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

The fuel system materials are good for E10, that's what they are tested to. However that doesn't mean they can't hold against E15. The manufacturers don't know until something dissolves.

The O2 sensors for a typical car can only read so far. Too much ethanol will go beyond their range. The ranges for various pramaters programmed into the computer also only go so far. Usually E85 or other fuels require a different fuel map as well as other software changes. That is the computer needs to be reflashed for the intended fuel. There are of course systems that can do flex fuel, etc and so forth, but I believe they use more expensive and/or additional sensors to allow the computer to 'see' more of what is going on and thus adjust to it.

Reply to
Brent

My Bonnie manual claims E15 is acceptable to use, and it even has an air/oil cooled engine (oil cooled heads). But the compression ratio is very modest at 9.2:1.

The detonation/pre-ignition sensor feedback should retard spark timing enough to prevent damage from E15, unless they doing something stupid in order to game the EPA tests.

Reply to
T0m $herman

The ecm mapping only goes so far. The O2 sensors and injector mapping also only cover so much.

They design for 87/89/93 octane with up to 10% ethanol. Then put the required octane and ethanol % in the book.

If you want to burn more ethanol buy a flex fuel. Just hope the ethanol sensor doesn't fail. They are not cheap.

Reply to
Steve W.

Here in Iowa [1], Magellan Pipeline only sends 84 and 91 octane straight gasoline, so our choices at the pump are 87 octane with 10% ethanol, 87 octane ethanol free blend of the 84 and 91 octane, and 91 octane straight. The ethanol free 87 octane is typically $0.30 more per gallon than the 87 octane ethanol blend, but I run it in the motos just to be on the safe side.

[1] One of the few remaining states that requires pump fuel to be at least 87 octane.
Reply to
T0m $herman

This is just another example of communism creeping into this country.

WHY is the govt. imposing E15 gas on us?! What do POLITICIANS know about the effects of ethanol on small engines(lawnmowers, snow machines, etc..)?

Reply to
thekmanrocks

"Steve W." wrote in news:ldaomi$ovd$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

Thats compleat bull, we have pkups that are not flex fuel been running E85 and all kinds of mixes for YEARS. (with no problems) That couldn`t happen if the ecms were that small of maps range. If it will handel E10 it won`t even notice E15 difference. KB

Reply to
Kevin Bottorff

"T0m $herman" wrote in news:ldfmj8 $965$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

and I am still royally pissed the pipelines are sending that crap gas to us. Our 89 octane ethanol was good gas, this 87ethanol stuff is trully crap. I understand why they hate E10 out East now. trully crap gas. I am trying 20 to 30 % ethanol now and it is running and getting as good or better milage than 87 octane E10. (no there not flex fuel eng.) KB

Reply to
Kevin Bottorff

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

I don`t know anywhere you can`t buy non ethanol gas for your small engs. KB

Reply to
Kevin Bottorff

I can buy it at just about any station I go to around here in NY.

Reply to
Steve W.

Really. You have engines that are not set up for flex running 85% ethanol? Without any modifications. You might want to talk to the auto makers and tell them the secret. NONE of their engineers can make it work without fuel composition sensors to reset the ECM mapping to match the fuel flow and timing to match the ethanol content.

Reply to
Steve W.

"Steve W." wrote in news:ldgbs1$7gg$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

there must be more flexable maping than there letting on because its happening with no eng problems. it may not be optimized but its working on many pkups. Now there probly not loading heavy and doing it either. also not every single time either which would help dilute some. but in summer quite a lot. KB

Reply to
Kevin Bottorff

Because the corn lobby pays them.

Reply to
Brent

There are a variety of mechanisms by which ethanol is imposed. The renewable content requirement and the oxygenate requirement. If you are well outside an EPA designated oxygenate area then you can get real gas. If you're not, you can't unless you drive outside the designated zone. usually set up with buffer counties to prevent people at the core of it from being able to effectively get no ethanol fuel.

Reply to
Brent

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