Given that the basic Hall-effect distributor will require one wire for ground, a second wire for voltage supply or reference voltage, and a third wire for output signal.
Probably the best question to ask is whether its output signal is actually needed to generated a spark. Will the Hall-effect distributor generate a spark without connecting the output signal into a computerized spark control unit? In other words, can I just just the 2 wires and disregard the wire for output signal?
I have Dodge 2.2. engine, using an aftermarket 2-barrel carb running on a modified points/condensor distributor (the ole Boss Kettering system), but I want to install a Hall-effect distributor from a new vehicle. I am not interested in interfacing it into a computerized control unit at the moment.
No. The output signal tells the ECU to spark. Without the output signal, the ECU doesn't know whether to spark or not... it's sort of like the points, but it's producing a very low level signal that needs to be greatly amplified to drive the coil.
You could probably build a device to do the job, modelled after a capacitive discharge ignition system with a big capacitor that charges up, and an SCR that is fired by the signal from the hall sensor. But it would take some electronic design work to do it.
I think you're overthinking the situation. I suspect that a MoPar "orange box" or a MSD 6AL or similar would serve nicely. Steve's point about advance is something to think about though. Is the distributor equipped with vacuum and/or mechanical advance mechanisms? If not, might be time to acquire one that is so equipped, otherwise it won't run worth a shiite. However, since he says he's running points, I am ASSuming that he's talking about using the distributor he already has and just ditching the points for a more modern Hall sender, which should work fine so long as the advance mechanisms are not defeated or significantly modified.
Just as an example, an old Studebaker V-8 Prestolite distributor is essentially the same as a B/RB MoPar distributor inside, only the housing, shaft, and gear are different. I'm currently running a modified Prestolite distributor in my '55 Stude that has been fitted with a Hall sender from a later model MoPar and is connected to the stock coil through an "orange box" and matching ballast resistor. It works great. (my right forearm can vouch for that...) I do have a MSD box to play with but it works well enough at the moment that I haven't been motivated to try it.
Wow, didn't know about the Mopar "orange box". I'll check them out to see how they hook up.
Basically, my 1984 Dodge Caravan has the original distributor yanked out, and I put in a modified Bosch 009 distributor (the ones the old air-cooled VWs have). FYI, the conversion from stock Mopar distributor the the Bosch unit is documented here:
formatting link
Since then, I've gotten an old 2.2l parts car ('86 Dodge Charger, with same motor) and I am interested in putting the stock electronic ignition back into the van, basically as a back-up when my point get burnt and I can swap in another ignition and get back on the road ASAP.
Unfortunately wiring is pretty bad in the old van, so I have to make all my ignition wiring from scratch again.
Sounds like the M>
I think you're overthinking the situation. I suspect that a MoPar "orange box" or a MSD 6AL or similar would serve nicely. Steve's point about advance is something to think about though. Is the distributor equipped with vacuum and/or mechanical advance mechanisms? If not, might be time to acquire one that is so equipped, otherwise it won't run worth a shiite. However, since he says he's running points, I am ASSuming that he's talking about using the distributor he already has and just ditching the points for a more modern Hall sender, which should work fine so long as the advance mechanisms are not defeated or significantly modified.
Just as an example, an old Studebaker V-8 Prestolite distributor is essentially the same as a B/RB MoPar distributor inside, only the housing, shaft, and gear are different. I'm currently running a modified Prestolite distributor in my '55 Stude that has been fitted with a Hall sender from a later model MoPar and is connected to the stock coil through an "orange box" and matching ballast resistor. It works great. (my right forearm can vouch for that...) I do have a MSD box to play with but it works well enough at the moment that I haven't been motivated to try it.
If he is talking about getting the first Chrysler electronic ignition used in the early 70's. Everything to control timing is in the distributor. But he needs something either an after-market box like you refer to or the OEM control unit to go between the distributor and the negative side of the coil.
-jim
----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
formatting link
The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000Newsgroups
I think you're overthinking the situation. I suspect that a MoPar "orange box" or a MSD 6AL or similar would serve nicely. Steve's point about advance is something to think about though. Is the distributor equipped with vacuum and/or mechanical advance mechanisms? If not, might be time to acquire one that is so equipped, otherwise it won't run worth a shiite. However, since he says he's running points, I am ASSuming that he's talking about using the distributor he already has and just ditching the points for a more modern Hall sender, which should work fine so long as the advance mechanisms are not defeated or significantly modified.
Just as an example, an old Studebaker V-8 Prestolite distributor is essentially the same as a B/RB MoPar distributor inside, only the housing, shaft, and gear are different. I'm currently running a modified Prestolite distributor in my '55 Stude that has been fitted with a Hall sender from a later model MoPar and is connected to the stock coil through an "orange box" and matching ballast resistor. It works great. (my right forearm can vouch for that...) I do have a MSD box to play with but it works well enough at the moment that I haven't been motivated to try it.
The Orange Box is made for a reluctor pickup, not a Hall Effect. Now, it might actually work OK with a hall effect, but I'm not sure.
But I'll tell you a secret, and this is coming from a dyed-in-the-wool Mopar guy: a GM 4-pin HEI module is much better than an Orange Box because you can eliminate the ballast resistor.
formatting link
Note that the "chrysler electronic distributor" noted on that web page is a RELUCTOR pickup type, NOT a Hall Effect.
The 'orange box' could care less how many cylinders you have. All it does is take a distributor output signal from the reluctor and amplify it to fire a coil. The distributor is what sends the high voltage to the correct cylinder. The same ignition module works on anything from a
4-cylinder to a v8, but as I noted in another post the 'orange box' and the GM HEI module both expect a reluctor-type signal and not a Hall Effect signal.
it's basically the "high performance" version of the stock MoPar electronic ignition box that was used on pretty much everything in the
70's, reason I suggest that is ordering the orange one from Jeg's, Summit, et. al. is the same price or less than buying a stock replacement from your FLAPS. You also need to buy a ballast resistor and a wiring harness to go with it (both available;) after that it's pretty plug and play.
I'd forgotten about the HEI module, but that is another option and probably easier to hide if such is important. I used the orange box on my car because it came with the distributor I bought.
Whoever mentioned that it was actually a reluctor not a Hall sender was correct, but I don't know that it makes that much difference (and I'm at work at the moment so I don't have the ability to research the outputs of the two and see if there's a significant difference)
Before you go too far with this, does the '86 dizzy have conventional centrifugal and vacuum advance, or is it computer controlled? if the latter you probably would be better served by putting a Pertronix in the 009 and being done with it, unless there's other reasons you want to ditch the 009. (I could respect that actually, IIRC the 009 does not have vacuum advance?)
Why would you want to eliminate the ballast resistor? I can tell you from personal experience that having a ballast bypass makes for much easier starting on high-compression engines. friend had a warmed over chevy 383 that wouldn't start worth a crap, I noticed that it had an old Mallory ignition system that used a ballast and that there was no wire from the starter to the coil side of the ballast. I rectified that little issue and starting was much faster. You can't do that with an ignition system that is designed to run on a full 12V all the time.
Its a slightly improved performance model of the standard Chrysler electronic ignition module that was used from 1970 through about 1990 when the last models got their ignition control moved into the ECM. Its just an amplifier that takes a reluctor signal and then switches the coil. The OEM units were called the "black box." The "orange box" was sold through Direct Connection (later Mopar Performance) and has better high-RPM performance. The "chrome box" was an even higher frequency model, and the "gold box" was a race-only version that allowed eliminating the ballast resistor, but would overheat the coil badly if you ever left the ignition on with the engine not actually running. The Mopar box was one of the first fully electronic ignition systems put in mass production. Its very good and very reliable, but the HEI module one-ups it in performance by providing active dwell control that switches the coil on only for a fixed period of time rather than leaving it on and just interrupting the coil current when its time to fire a plug. That allows elimination of the ballast resistor and its associated losses.
Thats exactly why you want to eliminate it: you effectively ALWAYS have a ballast bypass with a HEI system. Plus the ballast resistor is the most common point of failure in the Mopar system (which really says how reliable the rest of it is, because a ceramic encased ballast resistor is pretty damn rugged).
Eh... not really. The system voltage still drops to 9-10V when starting. Better that it do that on a system designed to operate at that voltage than one that is designed to operate at 12V.
Which is also good for impressing females. I "fixed" an ex-GF's Valiant at the side of the road with a paper clip and a shop rag when the ballast crapped out, and her friends still think I'm a real-life MacGuyver :)
Excuse me, I might have mixed up my Mopar 4-banger years. The Caravan in question is 1984, and the Charger is 1986. Just to set the record straight.
The (typically Brazilian-made) Bosch 009 dizzies are pure mechanical, always have and always will be. That's what I got in the Caravan. Yes, there are Bosch mechanical/vacuum units out there, if you can salvage them, and you will definitely notice a hugh difference in acceleration. But to buy them outright new would set you back many hundreds of dollars for a stock unit at that. I'm not burning money like the racers do at the track, the 009's (or
050's, which are a little higher in price but have better mechanical advance curve) are in the $60-$70 dollar range for NIB Bosch 009s, that price can't be beat for a new part.
"..you probably would be better served by putting a Pertronix in the 009 and being done with it..."
Yeah, I always keep like to keep my options open, and that's less than a C-note for new Petronix 009 conversion kits.
But I seem to be cornering the market in mini-mopar 2.2l parts for the moment, this Mopar orange box thingee you mentioned has definitely caught my eye. Seems like it's a little more cost-effective for me right now.
Has some basic diagrams for Mopar, 4 pin GM and Ford Duraspark
Other sites have a different diagram with the Ford to retard the spark when cranking. It seems those boxes from the Big 3 can use more than just a reluctor, points and hall effect seem to work to trigger as well.
MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.