Car Safety Report: Bigger Is Better

Electronic Stability Control is probably the most significant advance in automobile safety since I-don't-know-what. Bigger vehicles improved in the ratings solely because it reduces roll-overs.

People keep saying things like this, but I can't remember the last time I even felt the ABS engage... and traction control has made my life less safe, if I have the loud pedal floored, I'm probably trying to merge into heavy traffic, if a wheel hits a little patch of sand or whatnot please don't cut off all the power. So really, these electronic tricks are doing essentially nothing for me...

nate

It was predicted that ESC would dramatically cut down traffic deaths years ago. The reduction in deaths may be because of increased driver control with ESC, or maybe it ain't. I'm betting that it is. Maybe there are fewer roll-overs with ESC and maybe there ain't. I'm betting that high-center-of-gravity vehicles are safer these days because of ESC.

As far as your ABS goes, try stomping on the brakes under low traction conditions to see how that system works. I've activated the ABS myself. I'm pretty sure you'll know when it engages.

Nate Nagel wrote in news:ita19629n8 @news2.newsguy.com:

Anecdotally, ABS seems to cause all sorts of problems in my area, which has significant amounts of ice and snow in winter. The most common complaint I hear is that the ABS refused to allow the car to stop, and allowed it to keep moving forward, often right into an intersection. Remember, the job of ABS is to keep the tires from sliding, not to stop the car. Nobody I've personally talked to--who has had the ABS kick in for them--likes ABS, or even wants it anymore. One guy just bought a new Hyundai Accent, and was thrilled to find it came without ABS.

Statistically, my understanding is that it's difficult, if not impossible to point to ANY sort of collision reductions that might be due to ABS.

dsi1 wrote in news:4df868f1$0$17725$a8266bb1 @newsreader.readnews.com:

"Improved in the ratings," you say. ABS looked good in "ratings" as well.

I suspect that in real-life, any theoretical benefit from ESC will be overwhelmed by moral hazard.

I would disagree completely.

Without ESC, a squirrely car will be squirrely. You can feel that the CG is too high, or that it has stability problems for other reasons. You can feel it, so you slow down.

With ESC, the instability is hidden as long as the feedback keeps working. The car is in fact dynamically stable as long as it stays within the envelope where the ESC operates properly.

But... with ESC there is an abrupt point at which you get out of that envelope and all of a sudden everything becomes very unstable dramatically.

So, although ESC does improve stability under normal circumstances, the point at which the system becomes unstable is an abrupt one instead of a gradual one, and I think that can be dangerous.

--scott

I won't say anything about ABS. All I suggest is a way to demo the system.

You're not going to activate the ESC unless you you get into an emergency situation. Is that your style of driving? Sounds exciting. I don't want to argue the point, we'll find out soon enough if this computer controlled safety system really works.

Oh, I know what ABS feels like... in another life I actually logged a decent amount of test track time working on the stuff. Maybe in part because I learned to drive in cars of the pre-ABS era, and in fact only ever had one daily driver *with* ABS (most of my personal vehicles tend to be thoroughly pre-enjoyed before I get them) before taking a position with a company car, it just doesn't ever get used.

nate

I do remember that being a serious problem (experienced it myself, patchy ice could result in just "floating through" an intersection that you'd have easily stopped for without the ABS) with early ABS systems, the few newer ones I've tried have been much better. however it's not inconceviable that there still may be some bad ones on the market (some 10+ years later, but still...)

nate

N8N wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@e7g2000vbw.googlegroups.com:

That's not a fault, it's a /design feature/. ABS is /meant/ to do that, and that's what they /all/ do, no matter the manufacturer.

The single and sole purpose of ABS is to keep the tires from sliding when the brakes are applied. The ABS has absolutely no idea what kind of surface you're driving on, and has not a clue what sorts of obstacles you're approaching as you move forward. If the tires begin to slide, the ABS will kick in and prevent you from pushing the brake pedal down any further. And so you continue forwards whether you like it or not. If your tires are slightly worn, the effect is magnified. ABS is a bad idea.

snipped-for-privacy@e7g2000vbw.googlegroups.com:

Nah, I'm talking about a mostly clean road with just little patches of ice on it. w/o ABS you hardly even notice the ice. with *good* ABS, same same. But with *bad* ABS it will detect a wheel hitting a little ice patch and next thing you know it feels like your vehicle is actually speeding up (even though it's not, but you're seeing everything in slow motion) as you lose all braking and just sail through the intersection. BTDT. I've experienced decent ABS, and it won't do that. But I remember some late 90's vintage Dodge vans w/ ABS that the "loss of all braking when traction really isn't that bad" effect was experienced not only by YT but other drivers as well. It's really kinda scary, and not at all safe. I don't even recall the pedal pulsing as you would expect from ABS, I just remember it getting real firm like it isolated and dumped pressure and then the brain locked up or something.

nate

But I

Probably the Bendix 10 system. It was the worst.

this list

says Kelsey-Hayes EBC-5, assuming the van that I am remembering was a

94-97 (which about fits with the timeline that I recall.) So I guess I'm not a big fan of that system :/ The vans I believe were 3/4 ton or 1-ton frames, not sure which. Definitely not half ton. One had ABS, one did not, the one without while older was definitely much safer (at least for me) to drive in poor weather.

nate

This would not have anything to do with all american insistence that "all season" tires will do 4 seasons round and that studs on winter tires somehow significantly damage the roadway, thusly resulting in a ban in half of the states, would it?

... and then came ABS, ESP and the associated complexity

Yes, tire studs DO damage the cheap asphalt-topped american road surfaces. They polish two nice grooves in it where water ponds at just the right thickness to form strips of black ice. I started driving about

10 years before studs were mostly banned in my area, and saw it first-hand. They had already been illegal 6 months out of the year, when the sun and heat made the asphalt softer.

But having said that, I miss real snow tires as well. I never had problems with real snows on the back, so-called M&S on the front, RWD, and some ballast in the back. My FWD minivan, with M&S-rated Goodrich TAs all around, does okay in fresh snow on the flat, but if there is pack ice underneath, or any slope, or even on muddy grass in summer, gets stuck real easy, with daylight showing underneath it. I carry a tow strap now, and practice my 'help me' expression. And I'm a lot more careful where I drive and park, even if it means walking a block. Only advantage I can see for FWD, is it is a lot harder to get it ass-end-to on slippery surfaces.

Aw, come on, where I live it's far worse, primarily because the recommended procedure for alphalt installation is hardly ever followed and the stuff never gets a chance to cure properly before traffic is allowed to roll on it.

Well, winter tires, studded or not offer horrible grip on dry asphalt even compared to M&S. Hopefully people have enough brains to change for summer tires if only to avoid losing all the studs from a soft and therefore weak stud wells whenever temps are over 40F

I got an RWD precisely to get my ass around quicker using throttle on ice and snow. But, then, I wear studded tires in winter and my A4+quattro will receive a set for the winter as well despite the any wheel drive capability.