DEX-COOL, Conventional Green, & G-05... My Experiences

Using the garden hose..... Depending on where you live, using the garden hose to backflush may be more convenient BUT... doing so also introduces a LOT of harmful minerals to the system. I happen to live in a very hard water area and have replaced several radiators in cars over the years due to mineral deposits clogging up the radiator tubes.

Reply to
Philip ®
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Name me ONE make of car that pumps coolant back to the transmission.

Reply to
Steve

|Using the garden hose..... Depending on where you live, using the |garden hose to backflush may be more convenient BUT... doing so also |introduces a LOT of harmful minerals to the system. I happen to live |in a very hard water area and have replaced several radiators in cars |over the years due to mineral deposits clogging up the radiator |tubes.

Current thinking is that the residual tap water left in the block after backflush & drain is beneficial. The balance of the water added should ideally by RO water. Distilled if RO is NA. Rex in Fort Worth

Reply to
Rex B

|Joe Poitras wrote: | |> Quick physics lesson: |> |> A liquid under pressure under the absence of air will not boil or steam. | |False. | |A fixed pressure RAISES the boiling point, but if the engine gets hot |enough it will boil coolant. Don't believe it? Just cut your water pump |belt and run the engine for a while. By your theory, the coolant should |never boil, right? Try it if you really believe that.... :-p

The water will continue to expand until the resultant pressure overcomes the cap, then it will escape into the low-pressure atmosphere and boil. If you had a vessel able to contain the pressure of a quantity of water, no airspace, I think it would never boil. At least within the temps an IC engine could generate. Rex in Fort Worth

Reply to
Rex B

Engineers...smart....yeah right? No sense in rationalizing it... The Dex-cool hasn't panned out? Is some, most even, cars it is just fine. In way too many though, it crystallizes....and etc...yes it is teh owners fault for not keeping it topped up so as to keep air out...but most car owners are idiots and the green is much more idiot proof. I have had cars 15 years old that teh owners had never had a flush and fill..The coolant looked like dark beer. It is funny that is ran fine with no overheating....Some scale, but no hard crystalization and plugging things up. GM just refuses to throw in the towel with Dex-Cool since it they were the first to jump up on the band wagon and claim it was the best thing since sliced bread. I belive Texaco invented it....GM must own it now or they wouldn't be so loyal to it. As far as engineers "knowing so much" what about those 97 and up intake gaskets on the 3800.

Reply to
Uncle Dodo

Transmission fluid can enter the radiator and water can enter the transmission. In this case, the leaky cooler tank in the radiator will have to be replaced as well as rebuilding the transmission. One of the common indications of transmission fluid in the radiator coolant is the "strawberry milkshake" appearance of the coolant. this is a break down situation and not normal for any car. [/copied] from:

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Reply to
Slicknick

Ok, the basics of engineering at large corporations that results in many a problem with a product that just seems stupid to the outside world.

First let me divide engineers into 3 basic types:

1) those who are engineers because they were good at 'school'. These people go along with anything, can't design their way out of a wet paper bag and generally bring about all kinds of bad ideas. They exist to be promoted to the level of their incompetence. They go along with the marketeers, management, finance etc. They do whatever makes them look good. They pass off their own failed ideas on to others and generally end up being the decision makers. 2) Those who know what they are doing but too weak and shy to ever stand up for the best design or make a better product. In their quest to get along they support the same bad ideas as 1). They slowly advance to management where they become the weak managers that never defend their team. They rarely make a decision. 3) Technically good engineers that stand up for what is best for the product and generally the company long term. These engineers are stuck in the bottom ranks and are unlikely to advance. If they were made managers there wouldn't be any hope another product even barely working. They aren't very good socially and just strive to do the right thing to make the best product (considering cost) they can. These are often the same ones to get downsized. They will also have bad ideas and failures pawned off on to them.

Anyway I'm going to guess that gasket went down this way. A 1) engineer has a grand idea for a new gasket design that ignores all the experience of the company and anyone who has designed such a gasket before. He passes it to a 2) who passes it to a 3). The 3) engineer says it won't work. 2) tells him to do it anyway. He has to, no choice.

3) tools it up just like they want it. His initial testing shows it doesn't work, and it will take X weeks to fix. A 2) engineer passes this up to a 1) who said it wasn't acceptable, he couldn't make his bonus in X weeks. Fix it in Y days. (*MUCH* shorter time)

A 3) engineer comes up with a kludge to keep the project on time and warns of impending doom. The warning is ingored as the rantings of a person who isn't a "team player" and 1) is happy he can tell his bosses the gasket is ready for the pilot build.

They build it and there's all sorts of trouble with it in testing and the 2) and 1) make up all sorts of spin stories while 3) kludges it some more. Now X+n weeks have passed, and it finally 'passes' internal testing and this result is shipped for sale.

What happens in real use? Of course, it fails.

Reply to
Brent P

Well this may happen if the radiator leaks between the water reservoir and the atf reservoirel. Contamination would be at the radiator level. The effect is the same: strawberry milkshake.

transmission. In this case,

radiator coolant is

Reply to
Daniel

Reply to
Joe Poitras

If my rad cap stuck, then it wouldn't boil out until i ruptured a line, then there would be an immediate loss in pressure and then it would boil very rapidly, as the liquid would have been superheated (beyond it's normal boiling point)

Reply to
Joe Poitras

But it would still create pressure either rupturing a line or causing an explosion.

BTJustice

Reply to
Buford T. Justice

Thank you. I appreciate that.

No has ever accused me of being on the left, lol. I still to this day remember a science class I took, probably high school, where the science teacher explained that water is the only known liquid in the universe that expands when it cools / freezes and contracts when it warms / boils. An extremely great example are the highways. As water works it way into the crevices of the pavement and then freeze, they crack. I also remember a story (my facts may be a little hazy) that some kid got a lot of money for winning a government sponsored contest. Some small country has a surplus of explosive cannon balls. The kid figured that if water was put into them and then froze, the cannon balls would break in half, have the powder frozen in the ice, and the government could use the iron. Pretty smart kid.

I think the original problem was when I put in the term "steam" into one of the posts. I damn near wish I had never done that.

Is micro-boiling the same thing that happens when coolant causes cativation inside a water pump?

BTJustice

Reply to
Buford T. Justice

In all fairness, I just tried the example experiment with a used, needless syringe (my Dad is a diabetic). I could not get it to "boil" pulling the plunger fast or slow. The only bubbles I saw occurred when I left my finger on the syringe to where air was able to get in. That isn't boiling. Boiling is when water changes from a liquid to a gas. What the syringe did was simply let in air. He is right that water expands when cool / frozen.

A lot of that also depends on the ratio of water and coolant. After all, it is boiling that causes a boil over right?

2 cars then that originally had DEX-COOL gave you no problems? Glad to hear it didn't. Keep in mind most people, including myself, wanted to switch their older cars to DEX-COOL to get the long life benefits it offered. Thousands of people tried this. Some have had no problems, but most have. The funny thing is that some with DEX-COOL from the factory have problems. I don't think anyone has an exact answer as to why DEX-COOL slugs, makes mud, makes red cement, etc. since it is advertised as being compatible with green. I think it is air and hot temperture.

That is understandable on your part. Understand that I checked the coolant level in the overflow tanks weekly at first then about twice a month after noticing the coolant remained at the same level in the overflow tanks.. I just had different problems. The smoke coming out of the S-10, the gasket in the Lumina going bad, my mom's Monte with the red mud, etc. Since giving up on DEX-COOL, I have seen no problems with what I still own personally and work on for my family.

The other thing too is that it may make water pump seals last longer, but it doesn't protect the metal nearly as well as conventional green. Through doing research on G-05, I have read on several webpages that the reason Ford and Chrysler didn't go OAT when GM did is because of water pump, seal, and gasket damage they discovered in their testing. I guess GM put too much on the line to back down from it. Probably explains the lawsuit to some degree. They have now gone to G-05 which is an HOAT coolant containing low silicates to protect not only the metal of the water pump better than OAT / DEX-COOL does, but also protect other metals better including metal. Zerex

5 year / 100,000 mile conventional green in the white jugs is also a low silicate formula and is what I am running and having great luck with.

BTJustice

Reply to
Buford T. Justice

I like that post. Good one Steve.

BTJustice

Reply to
Buford T. Justice

I am lucky. The water in my hometown is in between soft and medium. Keeps the cost of soap down, lol.

BTJustice

Reply to
Buford T. Justice

Could have swore a local mechanic told me that once. I'll ask him here in a few days. If he says that is true, I will ask if he knows of a vehicle that does.

BTJustice

Reply to
Buford T. Justice

Very good post. I can see the engineering process going this way.

BTJustice

Reply to
Buford T. Justice

Of cousrse, this is what our legal system is all about.

Well there have been people who have done kind of the right thing. I mean they keep their eye on their overflow tanks to be sure their DEX-COOL is at the right level, but there are too many factor to mess up DEX-COOL. I am wondering why conventional green wasn't refined more. Zerex conventional green lasts 5 years / 100,000 and has a money back guarantee to boot.

Have you had a lot of experience with G-05? I am still researching it the best I can online. It sounds like a good product, but I will probably stick with Zerex green as I have found nothing about any performance improvement and both G-05 and Zerex green last 5 years though I would want mine (either one) replaced every 2 or 3 years.

I am not familiar with muriatic acid. Sounds like it needs to be diluted with water so as to avoid possibly ruining the overflow tank. Also sounds like it is some strong stuff, lol.

BTJustice

Reply to
Buford T. Justice

Re: DEX-COOL, Conventional Green, & G-05... My Experiences Group: rec.autos.tech Date: Mon, Oct 6, 2003, 12:20am (EDT-1) From: ???@msn.com (Buford=A0T.=A0Justice)

Reply to
opietaylor69

That is an excellent question. I would have to answer that by saying that the one of the biggest points of this entire thread is that DEX-COOL requires stricter maintenance and care as compared to conventional green. Obviously you have to keep your radiator full and the overflow tank filled to the mark specified in the owner's manual for your car. That being said, here are some of the unobvious things that some owners of cars that were factory filled with DEX-COOL have been told to do by GM...

1) Keep the overflow tank filled to the HOT line when engine is COOL instead of the COOL line of the overflow tank. 2) Replace their factory radiator cap with a Stant 10230 or 11230.

The above points are covered in this article...

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A big fact is that DEX-COOL will turn into that red mud or red cement. Why? I think it has to do with air entering the cooling system and, upon the coolant and air both being heated, the red mud and cement start to form. Also, I think it will form if someone converts from green to DEX-COOL but doesn't back flush, not regular flush, their system completely several times and run a chemical cleaner to remove the residue left behind from green coolant. The bottom line; coolant is not suppose to do this!

So why did GM start using DEX-COOL? They, in conjunction with Texeco, created it to extend water pump life through the absence of silicates in the coolant. They also created it in the hopes of it being a "selling-point". I still remember test driving a 1997 S-10 and the salesman telling me that GM had gone to longer life coolant and possibly transmission fluid so consumers could save money by not replacing them as much or something along those lines. I still remember thinking, 'Yeah! Right!".

Ford and Chrysler were apparently gonna go to DEX-COOL or an equivalent. DEX-COOL is an OAT coolant (organic acid technology). Ford in fact went to it on a couple of models and later backed away. Why? Both Ford and Chrysler found out OAT coolant was eating away at the seals and gaskets of their engines during tests. I would have to say GM stuck with it due to the millions they put into advertising and wanting consumers who bought GM vehicles to be confident with it. Some have lost this confidence due to problems I listed above and have filed a class action lawsuit. It will be interesting to see what happens. I am betting GM will lose it.

Anyway, Ford and Chrysler recently started using G-05 in their vehicles. It is an HOAT coolant (hybrid organic acid technology). It has silicates that green uses and DEX-COOL doesn't have. Silicates protect aluminum and other metals wonderfully.

I wish the Big Three had simply stuck with conventional green or will all go to G-05. Zerex's conventional green in the white jugs will last 5 years /

100,000 miles and has a money back guarantee if it doesn't. G-05 has been around for at least 20 years. Mercedes has used it since about 1983. John Deere has also used it for several years. I think it is probably a great coolant. The point is that there was no real technological need for GM & Texeco creating DEX-COOL. It is simply a matter of money. I guess they wanted the money other auto makers would have to pay if they went to DEX-COOL in their vehicles. Of course they didn't fall into the trap, lol.

If you have not had any problems, I would thank my lucky stars and stick with DEX-COOL. For those who have had problems, many have either kept getting their systems reflushed several times and being refilled with DEX-COOL or have gone to green coolant. Green, DEX-COOL, and G-05 are all (EG) ethylene glycol based. In fact 94 % - 96 % of the coolant is EG. The remaining 4% are the inhibitors, dye for color, and a little water. That being said, not all manufactures use the same percentages exactly. Some green coolants have more silicates than other green coolants. It seems Zerex has the right amount in their green coolant sold in the white jugs at most Autozone stores. No matter what coolant you run, be sure to replace it every 2 - 3 years. If you want to be real safe, replace it annually. The annual replacement does make a lot of sense since it would keep the coolant nice and fresh and hopefully cut back on deposits.

Here a few other really good articles to read...

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BTJustice

Reply to
Buford T. Justice

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