distributor mod for Chrysler 2.2 motor

I have a Dodge "K-series" type of motor 2.2 liter, 4 cylinder, with carb, not FI. My power circuitry to my distributor is fried, and I wantto try to retrofit a different distributor to run on it. Any solutions for a distributor which would work on this engine? It will be an off-road, racing type vehicle.

What I had in mind was to take an old points/condensor distributor off a

4-banger and do a little machining/welding to fit the distributor cog onto the dist. drive gear running off the crankshaft in the engine. A 4-cylinder having the same basic ignition system on any vehicle, so in theory I should be able to get the basic TDC, firing order and spark/dwell with a little fabrication and adjustment. Do you see any setbacks with this approach?

I am considering getting the widely-available Bosch "009" type aftermarket centrifugal-advance distributor that's used on air-cooled VWs, and to swap out the bottom cog, as I believe the VW distributors have an off-set cog to make it easy keep TDC inline before you drop it into the drive gear. I think the cogs are secured to the distributor center shaft with a pin, which can be punched out.

My main idea is to avoid a distributor that have to be interfaced with the computer brainboxes for the time being. Unless there is mopar electronic box is all you need to wire it in with the stock Hall-type distributor. Any details on this?

Reply to
Nathan M. Gant
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You'll go to way more trouble, expense and effort to kludge it together this way than to fix it using the widely-available correct parts.

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

OTOH, if Mr. Gant really wants to get his hands dirty, all he has to do is go to a wrecking yard and get a complete unit. He should also get a couple of spare Hall-effect pickups at the same time. Then it will just be plug and play until it runs properly. No machining required. Oh, don't forget the "GOOP" for cleaning up after it is all done :-)

Ken

"Daniel J. Stern" wrote:

Reply to
Ken Pisichko

...and how are we going to control the spark advance in this "meant for a computer that no longer exists to control the spark timing" distributor of ours...?

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Good point, Dan. I think the previous post was meant to be helpful and I appreciate it. But I'm looking at fried wiring and a burnt-out power box. Add up the cost of a (used) wiring harness, another power control unit, plus the time/labor of doing everything, the idea of dropping in an aftermarket distributor doesn't seem so outlandish at the moment.

I'm g> >

Reply to
Nathan M. Gant

H'mmm. I'm not sure I'm convinced. You should be able to get all the parts you need including a spare distributor for less than $30.

Nevertheless, I'll be interested to hear how it works out for you if you do try the adaptation job.

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

My Voyager '84 had a computer with a dud vacuum advance. Took another one from a carburetted K-Car and used it. I also found a smashed compooter that had a good vacuum unit (I tested it with my hand vacuum pump. On the smashed unit I saw there were 2 wires from the PC board that were soldered to the two ends of the coil inductor inside the vacuum unit. Mine now works fine as does the one from the wreck, I could have taken the wiring harness as well.....

When the vacuum unit goes it seems to be due to a leak in the diaphragm that moves a iron slug back and forth in the inductor coil. I guess that was CCs way of electronically adjusting timing advance based on engine vacuum.

The FSM has several different computers for the carburetted 2.2l engine with automatic. None that I have match the numbers CC gives, BUT all the computers work fine. It is nice to see the engine rev to speed as I increase vacuum by hand pump to the compooter.

LOTS of parts out in the wrecking yards....

Ken

"Daniel J. Stern" wrote:

Reply to
Ken Pisichko

Some preliminary notes on the distributor mod:

Yep, the 2.2.Chrysler short block appears to be a VW block. The aftermarket Bosch/VW ?009" distributor fits right into the hole of the Chrysler stock 2.2 liter motor. Not surprised, as the

2.2 Chrysler block was metric in the first place. Both distributors have the same O.D. However, the Chrysler distributor has a smaller dist. drive shaft (about 1 cm. diam.) than the Bosch (about 1.25 cm. diam.) Which simply means that, although you can swap out distributors, no problem, you have to drill the Chrysler dist. cog for an oversize hole, in order to fit it to the Bosch dist. drive shaft. Or tack weld it on the bottom of Bosch distributor.

When I get the motor fired up and running, I?ll report back. Stay tuned. Looks do-able. Seems like the $65 bucks for the Bosch 009 was a good gamble after all.

I doubt it if I could replace the stock Chrysler power circuitry box and wir> >

Reply to
Nathan M. Gant

Er...no. The 2.2 Chrysler is a 100% in-house engine designed and built by Chrysler. VW had no involvement in it at all.

Or turn-down the VW distributor shaft, which would avoid weakening the cog.

Surely you could. I've done it myself.

D
Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Ken, lucky for you,

I had to go ebay to get 2.2L carb! Ditto for service manual (IMPORTANT!) Just got the carb package today. This is for my 1987 'van. Junkyard visited several times has no older vehicles that have this ancient stuff, mostly TBI or like.

This 2.2L wiring stuff on that older 2.2L van is not that complex. Pull them out and replace them.

BTW VW's 009 distributor is mechanical only advance this will not be nice for gentle throttle operation you will have hole in tip-in, have to stomp. I used to enjoy thinking of getting a old VW but the practicalities & bodywork stopped that. Get another one that has vacuum can plus mechanical advances if you still insist on going mechanical and redo the points every oil change (shudder). Chrysler went electronic on inigition distributor in early 70's and so many chrysler owners with mechanical points distributor converted theirs to electronic types.

There was two types of hall-effect distributors for 2.2L. One that has vanes on the rotor w/ hall-effect sensor facing up, one that has vanes in the bottom body with sensor module "turned" over.

For mine that was the early type hall-effect distributor on 1987 'van. (!?) half year for 2.2L. Ditto to coolant temp sensor, I had to go way back to 1985 to find one in canadian's tire parts database to order it. Service manual showed the late distributor that is used on

2.5L and it was 1987 manuals.

Cheers & merry xmas!

Wizard

Reply to
Jason D.

My specific car is a 1984 Caravan, with a 5-speed on-the-floor shifter.

The local junkyards in my neck of the woods are shameless rapists and they would think twice about trying to stiff you for a used junk part for something close to the dealer price new.

The Chrysler stock distributor was great when it was working, I'm not putting it down by any means.

Also I'm sticking with new parts for my money.

The great thing is that the new $65 Bosch distributor will work on my Caravan.

I did find out that I can't do any welding to the distributor drive cog because it is nitrided/hardened steel, and that's not going to hold a weld very good. But I was able to swap out the Bosch cog with the Chrysler cog, and get the set-pin in the hole to secure it.

Some cutting and reaming is needed beforehand, because the Chrysler dist. cog has a smaller ID, so it won't fit on the Bosch dist. drive shaft. Again, you can't drill hardened steel very well, but a high- speed 'dremel' rotary grinder with a fine-grit grind-stone opened the hole up within a few minutes of work.

Also, the Chrysler dist. cog is thicker because it has a collar on top, so I took an angle grinder with a cut-off wheel and sliced that section out. Also, you probably don't want to use more than 2 shims between the cog and the Bosch dist. housing, or it will put a load on the drive shaft and make it hard to spin freely.

I did get the 009 distributor in and running, it runs okay except I think the plugs are fouling. I wasn't used to changing plugs as often with the electronic ignition, but those are minor work arounds.

The main thing is that I've bypassed the computer circuitry which was integrated to run on my stock Chrysler distibutor. Besides, there are aftermarket capactive discharge and some alternative electronic iginiton systems which can be used with the 009 distributor. I think this can offset the tendency for plug fouling.

If I find someone who will give me a wiring harness, Chrysler distributor and power circuit box for cheap, then I'll but the stock ignition back in.

For $65 bucks, I'd say I'm ahead of the game so far. Of course, I've regressed a decade backwards as far as an ignition system is concerned, but I'll have to live with it until I can upgrade an electronic ignition system to interface with the 009 distributor.

happy xmas.

"Jas> >

Reply to
Nathan M. Gant

Not necessarily. The 1984 'van parts is bit harder to find especially certain new parts, for that like wirings, computer; junkyards is the route to go. Otherwise ebay or

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and travel bit farther afield. I i'm in this similar situation with 1987 'van.

Thanks for your investigation into the computer's vac can. That's simpler than I expected.

Great for you!

I thought gear drive goes with the oil pump, the distributor's tongue fits the gear's slotted top like a tongue & groove?

Spark plug fouling could be not enough energy stored into coil or slow triggering or bit off timing?

That electronic ingition was big reason for clean triggering and sharp pulse (more sharper edge from on to off state step pulse) to collapse magnetic field sharply to get large energy to get hot spark. Powering the coil doesn't make the spark, taking away 12V to collapse magnetic field does. Also electronic inigition has more reliable triggering. That helps milage, keeps down emissions etc.

Like you had discovered, points is very FUSSY & points surface must be PERFECTLY flat and CLEAN. I think this chrysler's coil is direct 12V device and ballast is not necessary.

Ask here on ways to locate the parts you need to restore your 'van to original condition.

Cheers,

Wizard

Reply to
Jason D.

Nope, that's why I was sure the Bosch/VW 009 distributor would fit in the motor. When I pulled off the stock Chrysler dist., I realized that it was quite similar to the Bosch unit.

The net effect with the Bosch dist. is that I?m running a little rich at idle. I?ve been able to compensate for that by slightly reducing the fuel pressure with an inline (mechanical) fuel pressure regulator (the regulator was originally sold as an aftermarket item for the VW air-cooled motor and I?ve had it laying around for a while). It appears to help.

Other than taking a little long to shake off the rough idle when dead cold, the motor is firing on all cylinders and it will keep up with the speed limits on the highway. The retrofit with the new Bosch distributor has been a real lifesaver for me, money-wise. And no trips to the junk yard for second-hand parts.

I?m left with about 5 wires that came off the Holley 2-bbl carburetor. The schematics show connections to the oxygen sensor solenoid, a WOT switch (whatever that is), an idle stop switch (grounds in closed position) and maybe another ground and a hot lead.

So I need to get more info on this stock Holley carb for the 84 Dodge Caravan motor. Any suggestions of what to do with the carb. wiring would be greatly appreciated.

Reply to
Nathan M. Gant

This isn't an effect of the distributor, but of the removal of the computer, and your rich running is not just at idle. Your catalytic converter is soon to cook, too.

THere is no "oxygen sensor solenoid". There is an oxygen sensor screwed into the exhaust manifold, and there is a mixture control solenoid in the carburetor. The computer looked at the O2 sensor to determine the fuel mixture, and altered the signal to the mixture control solenoid to make it richer or leaner. Now the computer's gone, so is this functionality.

Wide Open Throttle.

Connect it to the computer that's supposed to be there.

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Give it up Daniel, now that he has it working somewhat, he's convinced himself that he's smarter than his betters, and that the computer isn't needed. The sad part is that what your seeing here is the beginning of the end of this van. In 6 months to a year, it's just going to be another junker on the side of the highway, and he's going to be off hacking up some other poor vehicle. Undoubtedly he will blame the engine failure in the van to poor engineering/age/bad gas/bad oil etc. but never to his own hack work on the engine.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

It's a nineteen year old Chrysler minivan, it's already just another junker. :)

Those things weren't known for their longevity, anyway. And, the OP's original reason for doing this, by his own words "temporary" kludge-up was because he couldn't find the real parts for a reasonable price. I noticed that several people here talked about being able to get the needed parts cheap, but nobody offered any real-world vendors or suppliers. The OP was unwilling to spend as much, if not more, for the needed parts than the value of the entire vehicle, and I can't blame him for that.

JazzMan

Reply to
JazzMan

Really? I see lots of the original 80s minvans on the road, many with in excess of 200,000 miles. Given that vans are used for pretty tough duty typically, and probably not maintained nearly as well as they should be, I think they have excellent longevity. My 96 GV has 144,000 miles on it now, the most of any vehicle I've owned ... and it is still going strong ... on the original transmission ... gasp!

I can't blame him for that either. Just common sense to know when to say when.

Matt

Reply to
Matthew S. Whiting

Weird mentality..."It's just a shitty American car, they're not known for their longevity, it's not worth maintaining or repairing properly". Then when it finally dies, "See? Told you it was just a shitty American car."

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Yeah, but are you willing to bookmark this thread for the next 6-12 months to see if you can eat those words?

I thought the internal combustion engine was pretty simple myself. I don't know why I can't make it last longer than that. I can pull off heads and do a valve job when there is excessive carbonization.

Yes, cat converters are nice, but this is an off-road/modified vehicle, not really meant to be a daily driver. Since when will a bum cat block the exhaust flow from my muffler? No back pressure that I can tell just yet.

This van is almost 20 years old, and still going strong. I replaced the complete ignition system for $65 bucks. The 009 Bosch works fine. I put in some new Autolite spark plugs, and added a (mechanical) fuel pressure regulator and the darn beast is purring like a kitten once it warms up. A little rich at cold start-up, but I think I could add on an aftermarket electronic ignition with all the money I saved so far.

What I did forget about using the 009 on my Caravan was that it has a few degrees of built-in retard for #3 cylinder, corresponds to specific dynamics of the air-cooled VW motor (the stock oil cooler sits in front of #3 cylinder and prevents some cooling to the #3 cylinder/head, so it runs hotter, therefore #3 ignition is retarded for that reason). The 009 has approx 22 degrees of advance and is timed BTDC.

A better choice for my application would have been the slightly-more expensive Bosch "050" distributor but not as widely-available. It is identical to 009 except for the following: it does not retard cylinder #3, hits full advance at a lower speed, gives a smoother advance (kicks in at around a hundred RPM lower than the "009"). I think it would be more appropriate for a heavier car like my Dodge Caravan. The "050" will advance to around 26 degrees at 3000 rpm on the VW engines. It is normally timed ATDC.

As I stated above, I think once I get the carb to run a little leaner, I would like to upgrade my Bosch 009 distributor with some kind of electronic ignition.. I see there are a lot of choices for (self-contained) aftermarket electronic ignitions systems which will work on the stock 009/050 Bosch distributor.

I've read that you can install CD ignition units which can work with stock points-type distributor or with the other electronic systems.

From what I've been able to gather, a CDI system will slightly increase rpms, give better gas mileage, cleaner plugs, cleaner cylinders, no wear on the point contacts and a easier start. OTOH the CDI's spark energy is so large, stock wires will tend to wear out quicker. Good wires are a must. I read that John Connolly at aircooled.net is selling CDIs for under $100 bucks. I think the Jacobs and MSDs are going for over $200.

Crane Cams is selling an optical trigger conversion for imports, but the advice I'm reading so far is to avoid optically-triggered systems. Detroit stayed with magnetic triggers for good reason.

It appears that the two most common magnetic-triggered systems are the Pertronix and the Compufire.

JC Whitney advertises the "Pertronix Ignitor" electronic ignition for $65. This is a Hall effect system, like the stock Chrysler distributor, a magnetic trigger unit.

VW aftermarket dealers such as EMPI and the BugZone are selling the Compufire system.. It eliminates the points and condensor, uses a magnetic pick-up unit that triggers the coil. About $80-$100 dollars.

I figure I could sink no more than $200 bucks in my Caravan and I'll finally be happy with an improved ignition and better fuel economy. IMHO it's still more cost effective than trying to find used parts at the junk yards.

Wanna bet the car will be >

Reply to
Nathan M. Gant

I'm beginning to suspect Mr. Gant here is our very own "Student Mechanic" in yet another disguise.

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

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