EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested?

The improvement in emissions was at least an order of magnitude more than the "dilution" would have produced. This was in the days before "storage" catalysts that can store oxygen (part of the reason mixtures MUST oscillate around stoich - go rich, then lean, then rich) Air needed to be added in order for the oxidizing catalist to function effectively.

Reply to
clare
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VW has NEVER been owned by Chrysler, nor has Chrysler been owned by VW

Reply to
clare

Bigger injectors will just be dialed back by the computer as the O2 sensors report a richer than optimum mixture. Too big and the engine will go into "limp mode" because the engine remains too rich even with the calibration at lean limit. Power will suffer.

Yes, but it will turn on the CEL and in many cases prevent the engine from starting, even if it will run after starting. ANd it will run like crap when it runs. NO incentive to do it.

Used to remove the limit caps, adjust to spec (or modified spec) and then replace the caps, as required by law. We did the adjustment using the exhaust gas analyzer that was part of the Sun, Allen, Marquette, or Rotunda diagnostic scope I was using at the time. Quite a few were off spec from the factory. AMC,Chrysler, Mazda and Toyota dealershipsduring that time period, as well as independent repair shops

It wasn't hobbyists - it was "hack mechanics" who didn't know anything about emmission controls and defeated them in an attempt to "solve" problems. - some real and some immagined.

Reply to
clare

There are few things more terrifying than slow lead poisoning. The improvement in the amount of lead in people's bodies has been amazing since lead was taken out of gas.

That's not to say MBTE isn't pretty bad... it is. But lead is about the scariest thing you can imagine.

When I was fresh out of college with an EE degree, I interviewed at a battery plant in Alabama.... and as soon as you walked into the town you could see the people in town being stupid. Everybody, everybody in town had clear signs of lead exposure. I got out of there as quickly as I could and I did not look back.

You can say some bad things about the EPA and some of them are true, but the reduction in lead exposure has been one of the biggest benefits to health in this country. It probably hasn't resulted in the air smelling or looking any better (and feedback control of fuel mixture has) but it's been a big deal.

Depends on the state. LA is an interesting example... LA sort of has its own weather system in the basin and smog in the basin doesn't blow away, it just sits there and people stew in it. New York isn't like that... smog in New York turns into smog in New Jersey.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

And smog in the Ohio Valley slides up and sits on top of Central Ontario - - - -

Reply to
clare

You questioned how one could simply defeat emission controls. You were provided with effective examples.

Again, you questioned how one could simply defeat emission controls. You were provided with effective examples.

"Periodic rough idle complaints on new cars ..." I knew I heard that somewhere. After verifying everything else was within spec, and given that emission testing was not mandatory, the scope, a vacuum gauge, and a tach was all that was really necessary for an experienced mechanic to adjust the idle mixture.

AMC,Chrysler, Mazda and Toyota

Laughable ignorance. No, what led to cleaner air was unleaded fuel, catalytic converters, multiport fuel injection and overall drive train computer management (MAF, MAP, IAT ... sensors, among others) of HUNDREDS of millions of cars replacing the archaic Kettering ignition, centrifugal spark advance, coil choke-manifold vacuum-non linear venturi based carbureted engines. Sad that you don't seem to know and understand something that fundamental.

Reply to
.

I'm pretty sure VW will be required to put some kind of "code" in their "fixed" system's computer. If you don't get it fixed they will know at the inspection station that it's not fixed and will fail you.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

Note that this applies to DIESEL cars only, apparently.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

Safety checks on light cars and trucks are nothing but revenue generators for the state and repair shops. The number of accidents prevented by them is essentially zero. Emissions testing of relatively new cars is also almost pointless but as cars age there are undoubtedly many people who would just let the CEL blink and the car pollute forever as long as it kept running. AZ has allowed cars to skip the test for the first 5 or so years and then tests every other year. Seems like a reasonable approach. Thank god we don't have those stupid safety inspections so beloved of the anal retentive nanny states back east.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

Exactly what are you trying to say??? My reply was to say there were many instances of people - hobbyists and mechanics alike, screwing with emmission controls in an attempt to defeat them and get better mileage and power, and getting (usually) neither.

Nowhere did I even suggest any of that had any positive effect on emmission reductions. What "laighable ignorance" are you talking about??? Of course it was " unleaded fuel, catalytic converters, multiport fuel injection and overall drive train computer management (MAF, MAP, IAT ... sensors, among others) of HUNDREDS of millions of cars replacing the archaic Kettering ignition, centrifugal spark advance, coil choke-manifold vacuum-non linear venturi based carbureted engines" that made the difference. Where did I ever suggest otherwize??

Or are you saying the emission control inspections were not instrumental in reducing emmissions? They WERE for a short period of time, partly by catching the vehicles that were "screwed with" by hobbyists and "hack mechanics" - but they have become virtually redundant today because the sophisticated engine management systems can pretty well tell you if the vehicle is running within design specs with a cheap OBD2 code reader - or even your cell phone with the proper software and OBD2 code reader adapter.

No idea who or what you are since you hide your identity. I was a carreer proffessional mechanic for years, as well as an automotive technology instructor at both secondary and post-secondary (trade) level.

Reply to
clare

And as I've stated multiple times now, they comprised an insignificant component of the problem.

Any claim that hobbyists, racers, lack of or incompetent maintenance or what have you, constituted a noticeable effect on air quality in general suggests a misreading of the problem.

Evolved and more effective emission controls resulting in lower emissions? Yes. Less emissions due to inspections? Of course not in any significant measure.

They WERE for a short period of

Sad.

Reply to
.

That's hit/miss here in NY. The software looks but depending on the ECM it may not work. Then you grab the scan gun and see if the old inspection tag has the correct VIN in the matrix.

Reply to
Steve W.

I still fail cars for being rolling junk.

Power tuners and pass through devices that alter the signals from sensors. See them all the time, and frequently fail the vehicle they are on.

Yep, Still happens today. EGR bypass kits, tuner bricks, fake O2 sensor signal generators, and more.

It is in NY as well.

Reply to
Steve W.

I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno. No OBD hookup whatsoever.

Reply to
Ewald B?hm

I know this intimately not to be true, in the truest sense of what you say.

While many stations will certainly do a courtesy OBD scan, since you can't pass CA emissions with a given number of pending or set codes or unset monitors (the numbers of each are depending on the year of the vehicle), it is absolutely NOT a requirement to run the OBD scan.

Look it up. I did.

Reply to
Ewald B?hm

Many corporations have no morals these days, and like most criminals, they think they won't get caught. Do you remember Bank of America, how when it got several checks whose total exceeded the money in someone's checking account, regardelss of the order they came in, they would process the biggest ones first, so as to empty the checking account so that all the little checks bounced, giving them as much insufficient funds fees as possible. That was outright stealing by the Bank of America. They only changed because the government caught them and made them.

I had occasion to be in a Wells Fargo branch, and I was telling the bank officer why I despised Bank of America and he was telling me I should change to Wells Fargo, and 6 months later, 2 or 3 years afer the incident with Bank of Am. and I reed in the paper that Wells Fargo is doing the same thing, and they didn't even stop after Bank of Am got caught. They are also thieves and if they don't steal more often, it's because they think they'll get caught, not because those in charge have any morals.

Reply to
micky

Only with half of what you say. They will do t he same on the emissions test, and continue to pass unless something is broken.

But yes, that means they'll get lower mileage, not just during the test.

VW should pay them for the extra gas they will have to buy, and pay them for the time it takes to go to the gas station and get it.

Reply to
micky

Maryland used OBD on cars new enough. That includes my 2000 car, but I don't think included my 1995 car.

(For the 1995 it used the dynamometer and tailpipe stick) I think when I turn 70, if I don't drive too much, I won't have to be tested. Or my car.

Reply to
micky

Sorry, I should have mentioned that the position I set out is that under English law and other jurisdictions will no doubt differ.

Reply to
Cursitor Doom

You said it yourself. You can't pass emissions with pending codes. They have to run a scan to check this. That's why before they even stick the exhaust gas analyzer into the tail pipe they read the codes. No point proceeding with the test if there are unset codes, though if you're paying for the test they will complete it to check for other failure modes as well.

At least that's the procedure for the four vehicles I have had smogged every two years for the past 20 or so years. Also the procedure at the repair shop my relative operated until he sold it last month, and he probably did 3000 or so smog checks per year.

I guess you could claim that it is not a requirement to run a scan, it's just a requirement that you can't pass with pending codes and the only way to check for pending codes is to do a scan. If there is another way to check for pending codes other than doing a scan you would be correct, but I don't think that there is.

Reply to
sms

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