Fed told GM to drop Pontiac or no bailout.

Old news

That the feds wanted to pair down the number of divisions?

I don't know - maybe.

Or maybe trying re-engineer corporate america to be more friendly to native americans - a different reason to kill the Pontiac division?

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So now we had Buick, GMC, Cadillac, and Chevrolet, and then, I wanted, badly wanted, to keep Pontiac, because Pontiac was on its way back, and it had been mismanaged for a number of years, you know, with 'rebuild excitement,' and the excitement was only in the plastic body cladding, mechanically there was nothing about Pontiac in the 90s that would make your heart beat faster. And with the solstice and solstice coupe, and with the Pontiac G8, which was a great car. We were embarked on a strategy of making pontiac different from the rest of GM in that Pontiac wouldn't get any front wheel drive cars, they would all be rear-wheel drive, and the next G6, was going to use the architecture of the cadillac ATS, it was going to be a 3-series sized rear-wheel Pontiac, with basically the Cadillac ATS 'de-premiumized,' obviously, a lot of the cost taken out, but still fundamentally that architecture.

That was going to be the next G6, and I think we could've moved pontiac away from every other American volume brand and really started positioning it as attractive US alternative to some of the, and obviously at much lower prices than the european rear-wheel drive cars, but the Feds said "yeah, let's just, how much money have you made on pontiac in the last 10 years?" and the answer was "nothing." So, it goes. And, when the guy who is handing you the check for 53 billion dollars says I don't want pontiac, drop pontiac or you don't get the money, it doesn't take you very long to make up your mind.

But I think it is a shame, Pontiac was on its way back, and it was killed before it, before the plant could really sprout blossoms, you know, it was well on its way. So, I agree with you, I think Pontiac was a great, wonderful history, mismanaged for a number of years in the 80s and 90s and it was clearly on its way back, and we were starting to see a very good customer base in solstices and especially in the G8, which was favorably compared in a lot of road tests to the BMW 5-series, people would say dynamically the car is as good and it's more powerful and way cheaper, but that was too bad. but you can't go through Chapter

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What about Saturn? Or is that division already dead?

They killed Oldsmobile a few years back. Chrysler killed Plymouth, but they brought back Challenger, Charger and now Dart (all Dodges). Chrysler moved RAM from being a Dodge and made it a separate division.

GM can always bring Pontiac back.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, if it means you maintain market share against everyone else (including Japanese and Korean brands) -> AND

Hey, my first car was a '61 Ventura and "my" current car is a '93 Grand Am. Son's driving a '95 Bonneville. But I don't care at all that Pontiac is gone. Just a brand name basically, after the muscle car times. The Bonneville is one of the few FWDs that didn't have a Chevy equivalent on the same platform. Same with Olds and Buick, which I also had. Staying even isn't a good business strategy. Besides, I think Pontiac was losing market share, and not staying even. I know there's fans of Pontiac and Olds. I loved my '64 Holiday '88. But I think they got it right in what they cut. I've only considered buying Chevys and Buicks for many years now, and didn't even think about Olds or Pontiac. Don't know exactly why, but that's probably pretty average thinking and reflected in the marketplace. I've always thought GM was spread too thin, and that cost them in the "sales publicity" wars. When the Celebrity was around, Toyota Camry was always bragging about being the "car sales leader." But the GM A-body was selling more cars. Celebrity, Cierra, Century, 6000. Same car really. Besides the "publicity" issue, concentrating on one model should lead to higher quality, and better sales. That's one reason Camry/Accord/Corolla/Civic did so well.

There is a new article at Drudge Report about black boxes in cars. Heck, a full tank of gas in my old 1983 big Dodge van last me almost a full year. I just don't hardly go anywhere anymore. Food store and another store for do ggy's dog food and meds, that's about it.

They can bring the name back, but that's not the same thing. Pontiac had different engine designs and a lot of stuff that they did not share in common with the rest of the GM line. That's stuff they have to make in smaller production runs, keep in inventory, and keep spares for.

So, I'll buy that killing Pontiac could be a win overall. It's got too little stuff in common with the rest of the GM lines to keep, but it has too much stuff in common with them to split off as an independant.

If they want to rebadge some Chevy products as Pontiacs....

--scott

None of which matters to anyone currently under 30 (and anyone who isin't born yet) who doesn't know or appreciate "techincal details" like that.

They did it for Saturn.

The marketing of many consumer products is largely a story of changing trivial details and putting a different badge on it. Worked for years for consumer electronics. Many Sony cam-corders came out with different model numbers that you only saw at specific retailers. Same for mattresses. There was a cost for Sony to do that, but it obviously had a bigger payback.

Manufacturers always want to sell products that extract the highest price that any given consumer can afford - but someone like GM isin't going to accomplish that simply by having some Cadillacs that cost $15,000 and other Cadillacs that cost $55,000.

And know this -> with computer-aided design and manufacturing and smart-plants, it costs a whole lot less to retool a plant these days than it used to to.

Right. It doesn't matter to the customer at all, but it makes the vehicle more expensive to manufacturer and support. THAT is why the division is going away.

It's true. But don't forget the support and stock costs. I think the tax on parts-on-hand that began in the late 1980s and created the push to JIT management has increased the costs of outlier products substantially.

--scott

Saturn production stopped in late 2009, just before the last Pontiacs

GW

When GM decided to commonize most divisions not chevy, caddy, and buick became irrelevant. Buick because Buick is a well respected name plate in China. In the USA it also is irrelevant. The divisions lost their indentity. Same with Mercury. No indentity. It all became options and marketing but not the cars weren't different enough for anyone to care.

But the great G8 was made by Holden.

I thought a Bonneville was a motorcycle?

Cannot say I mind its demise - funny to tell the Pontiac chauvinists, "At least Honda is still making cars". Payback is a bitch :)

"All we gotta do is dump that lousy division and you'll give us a bajillion bucks? Where do we sign!!!" :-)

I remember my nephew buying an Aztek. He was so proud of it, he sent us a picture of it from his phone. All I could say was "sacrebleu!"

You're probably mistaking Bonneville for Harley-Davidson. Similar sounding, except for the syllables.

Pretty sure it's the Honda guys who are the chauvinists, but not too sure that's true. I'm really a Chevy guy, so I ignore lesser brands. My Grand Am and son's Bonneville were both kind of "free." The Grand Am a hand me down from my daughter, and my son bartered some labor for the Bonneville. Might even say they were foisted upon us. The only car brand that can't disappear from the U.S. is Chevy. I knew 100% the gov would bail out GM. Had to, because of Chevy. Jesus, it would be like losing Coca-Cola, Ford, or Pez. Look what happened when Hostess went bankrupt. Word is the gov was involved in secret negotiations to ensure Twinkies survived.

lol!!!

GW

Bonneville Salt Flats.

Then what is this doing in my garage? ;)

The Bonnie has a nice even idle with its 360° crank - sounds nothing like an air-cooled H-D twin that due to its single journal crank and 45° "V" angle fires at 0°, 315°, and 720°. Also has reliable electrics and does not leak oil - my God, what have you done to British manufacturing, Mr. Bloor?

I used to have a spoiled brat cow-orker (sic) who had a ca 2000 Grand Prix and was full of himself and the car.

You might have bought a real one: