Ford's new hybrids go 47 mph on electric power alone

Anybody know how long the batteries in the hybrids last on average and how much they cost to replace? Here in the Arizona desert even good quality lead acid batteries often fail in less than 2 years. I'm guessing that you could buy a lot of gas with the cost of one hybrid battery replacement.

The nimh batteries used in hybrids will outlast a lead acid battery by a significant margin. They are more expensive, but dollars per mile will likely be VERY close by the time the average battery set needs replacement.

You missed my point. I wondered if the Arizona heat would kill the hybrid batteries as it does the lead acid batteries. I did a little Googling. Turns out the current hybrid batteries can take the heat much better than lead acid batteries.

Sources:

US$2500 battery replacement cost. Ouch.

Source:

Several comments:

1. Nobody really knows how long the big NiMH batteries will last, because they haven't really been around for long enough to have seen all of the relevant failure modes.

1. The NiMH packs will at least deal better with the heat than open-cell lead-acid batteries. They won't have the issue with electrolyte evaporation.

2. If you are losing batteries on a regular basis in the heat, buy a hydrometer and use it every month or so! You will find that in the desert heat your battery loses water, and you are going to have to keep topping it off with distilled water to keep the specific gravity correct. If you just use tap water, or you just fill them to the mark without checking the gravity, your battery won't last long.

--scott

Most everybody in a desert city (I'm in Phoenix) has poor battery life. In summer on 115F+ degree days (we have several a year) the temperature over the parking lot surface can be 130 degrees and under the hood 140 degrees. (Inside the closed car it can reach 150 degrees.) Garaged cars fare better but even my garage goes well over

I've used sealed batteries for years now. They came with the car when new and of course the specified replacements are also sealed.

However I've been here for 60 years now and even when I was young and broke and was careful to keep the battery topped off there was no difference. You just expected to replace the battery on warranty every year or so...

Most of those 'sealed' batteries are only sealed so you have to buy a new one when they boil low. Planned obsolescence at work. You 'can' still cut the seals and make them the opening type so you can top them up. It works very well.

Mike

Right - but the history of very low NiMH Hybrid Battery failures so far shows they should be good for "the life of the car" - a good 15 to

Consider that the cost of replacing the battery pack is no more expensive than having the automatic transmission rebuilt on a conventional car, people do that all the time rather than scrap the car. And by then they can install a "Gen III" battery pack and go another 15.

Or you have hit the class of 'Beater Car' and it gets scrapped when the battery dies, the engine is getting tired and the body rusts out...

When you hit the point of needing the second battery pack in 30 to

And with any luck by then Hybrids will be common enough that they trust the advanced shade-tree mechanic to work on his own car, and the info and tools will be widely available instead of a carefully guarded State Secret.

You still have to be careful to not fry yourself - it's the same level of danger as twenty gallons of gasoline in the tank, just a slightly different list of Things You Shall Do and Shall Not Do.

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The dealer buys my new batteries, generally one or two during the warranty. Fortunately battery testing during routine service catches them before they strand me.

As I said I did keep them topped off when I had open batteries in the past, and still the same battery life. The heat failures I'm talking about are not from lack of water...

They apparently do have a low failure rate, but where? That was my original question. Does that low rate also apply to a car living in the desert heat all it's life?

True, but in one of these cars you now have to worry about *both* the transmission and the hybrid battery failing.

That would be nice but I have my doubts when I can't even get my cell phone battery to last 2 years...apples and oranges, I know. Still, call me skeptical...

No, they are not. We have relatives down in AZ and they all have to go through this.

Standard open-cell lead acid 100 month lead batteries cost what, $60 from a retail auto parts place? So in AZ after 3 years they are dead, you replace them and get $30 back on the warranty as a credit to the new $60 battery.

The battery manufacturers love AZ. Everyone down there buys a new battery every 3 years, at $30 a pop that's a good revenue stream.

Ted

It's not apples and oranges. The cell battery and the hybrid battery are the exact same technology. And I agree with you, the claims that NiMH will last 20 years are utter bullcrap. I use NiMH batteries regularly in different electronic devices. They last about as many recharge cycles as NiCads. Their advantage is that they are not as environmentally damaging as NiCads and they have a higher voltage per cell.

The hope is that if hybrids get popular that the large number of batteries needed will introduce economies of scale that will drive down the price.

Even today you can get replacement NiMH batteries for your cell phone from Chinese retailers for a quarter of the cost of just buying them out of a cell phone kiosk in the mall in the US. And if you buy them by the thousand from China you can get them for a few bucks a battery.

The automakers know that bad press about NiMH hybrid battery life will likely kill widespread deployment of hybrids, so for the time being they are going to spend a lot of money replacing traction batteries under very long warranties. Once the price per battery drops to the $500 range you will see those long warranties disappear.

What really is needed is someone to design a hybrid that uses a charge jar, like a large Leyden jar, and takes the generated AC voltage and steps it up into the 100,000 volt range, then feeds it into the charge capacitor.

Ted

They may be both batteries, but certainly not the same technology. A modern cell phone uses a lithium-ion battery. A current hybrid uses a nickel-metal hydride battery. Apples and Oranges...

I'd like a hybrid that I could plug in and take advantage of my nuclear power generated electricity for short trips, and then kick in the gas engine if needed for longer trips. No exhaust for in town driving should help the pollution (environment) also..

I do not live in AZ, but will add that the heat related failures (100 F plus degrees ambient summer temp) that I have personally observed on my last 3 Sears Die Hard (7-year) batteries were not from lack of electrolyte/distilled water. In my case, all 3 went completely open circuit and registered zero volts with a digital meter. I suspect that one of the internal connections from the plates to the battery post must have mechanically failed for this to happen. By the way, the battery worked great right up till the moment of failure. It also would not take a charge either, further suggesting the open circuit condition. These failures occurred over the last 10-15 years, so it appears that whatever the failure mode, it has not been addressed by the manufacturer.

I agree with the OP that heat is especially hard on an automotive lead acid storage battery. Keeping the water level up is likely to prevent premature failure due to sulphation, but did not appear to prevent the failures I've experienced.

Bob

That, and you are always trying to stretch your cellphone battery life, running it down to dead regularly, some people let them sit dead for a day or two before noticing...

The car battery packs are kept in a tighter range of charge.

But if you don't have a charging point at your day destination, you let the car sit partially discharged. And that's not good for the batteries. That's why the current hybrid cars don't want people modifying their cars into plug-in hybrids on their own, because the carmaker is still on the hook for the battery warranty.

Well, until they void the warranty for the customer modifications, but that generates real bad publicity if they do it too often.

-->--

put a solar panel on the moon roof please.

open it to see the sky and feel the air and cool off when convenient.

close it for parking and recharging in the sunlight.

top off the battery while watching a matinee or going shopping.

great family fun ... the kids will love it.

sumbuddie wear blind sea

:)

in article 490a14b2$1@kcnews01, C. E. White at snipped-for-privacy@removemindspring.com wrote on 10/30/08 12:10 PM:

Lithium-ion batteries (in cell phones and laptops) are smart batteries in that they won't allow full discharge. They are designed to shut down before damage occurs. So running your cell phone until it shuts off shouldn't hurt it, although that might be rough on the conversation in progress.

As an aside some lithium-ion batteries have not been so smart recently and have caught fire (both phones and laptops) even when the device is not in use. That would certainly be a surprise if you happen to carry the phone in your pocket... 8-O

It's back to battery design then. Until they can perfect battery technology to allow you to cruise around town on electricity, we will continue to need excessive oil and create unnecessary pollution...

The Nokia model 5100, 6100, 2110, 2120, 2160, 3210, 3210e, 3320,

Many other cell phone models do as well.

Ted

A plug in hybrid would be better for the battery, assuming the mods are done right. The battery doesen't care that it's getting electricity from the engine or the wall outlet. The reason they haven't introduced plug in hybrids yet is because of all of the negative publicity by a bunch of losers in the United States against electric cars. All you have to do to convert a plug in hybrid to an electric car is add more batteries and disable the engine - it's a very short intellectual jump from a plug in hybrid to an electric car.

This is the same reason they haven't introduced turbo diesels into passenger cars in the US even though it is better engine technology, and widely used in other countries.

Ted

SO, tell me, does the dollar value of the electricity generated from the solar panel exceed the cost of repainting the car because of premature paint failure caused by not garaging it?

Your not going to generate a lot of electricity in the garage.

Ted