FRAM oil filter

What needs to be proven is if the cheap cardboard end caps and cheap construction of the Fram oil filters is better than the steel end cap construction that EVERY OTHER OIL FILTER MAKER uses.

I go to the retail auto parts stores that sell mostly consumer shiny chrome crap, like the Checkers/Shucks/Kragen and I see a lot of Fram filters and no other brand. I go to the other auto parts stores in the area like the independents and I see a lot of Purloator and Power-Flo (which is a Purolator-made filter) And the Fram filters cost more. So, please tell me why the Fram construction is so much better that I should pay more?

I see Fram selling their Double Guard oil filter and claiming it is better since it has Teflon in it.

Then I go to Dupont's website on Teflon uses in automobiles, which is here:

and nowhere on it do I see Teflon recomended for use INSIDE OF ENGINES

Then I go to DuPont's website that is setup for their version of Teflon that's specifically marketed for use as an oil and grease additive, which is here:

and in the FAQ for this additive, here:

I see the question and answer:

"Is Krytox® used as an additive to combustion engine oils?

Krytox® is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for internal combustion engines because it is inert and will not mix with the oil."

So, in leu of any claims from the manufacturer of Teflon, Dupont, that Teflon is of any use whatsoever in internal combustion engines, and in fact a statement that it is "not useful" in engine oil, I have to conclude that Fram is full of shit.

If you don't think this is real data I don't know how you can possibly be satisfied. I certainly am, and I do not use Fram oil filters in my vehicles.

Ted

I'm aware that Canadian Honda OEM filters are made by Fram (they say "Honeywell" on the side). Also, in perusing Fram's site, I see that they are OEM for Mack and Detroit Diesel heavy-duty filters.

It's probably a silly question, but why would Honda, Mack, and Detroit Diesel use Fram as a supplier if Fram have such a bad reputation? Are the OEM-built Fram filters different from those available to the aftermarket?

Because they were the lowest bidder? Because the filters are good enough that they have an "acceptable" failure rate?

Quite likely. If nothing else, I would assume that the OEM filters would be required to have anti-drainback valves that actually work, unlike the aftermarket garbage. Customers don't like to listen to lifter rattle on brand new cars.

Like others have said, it's your choice, but for my own personal cars, I will use any other brand before I use Fram. They just aren't worth it. When my FLAPS sells Wix for the same price why would I touch a Fram with a 10 foot pole?

nate

My statement was, and continues to be, that a cut apart filter comparison does not constitute data. Failure rate comparisons, engine failure statistics, particle size distribution removal, loading capacity, etc constitute data.

If there were clear and meaningful data from a credible source, FRAM might be out of business. Others might be in trouble too.

Like you, I am sure, I would like to use the best product possible so long as it is not price prohibitive. I just really dont know what that product is in this case.

Very true. It's odd that even Consumer Reports appear not to have done any sort of filter tests, even as they've done tests on oil itself, however credible or incredible those tests may have been (nod to Daniel Stern).

Actually, I don't much care what the price is. I just want a good filter. Even if it's $10 per filter and I change the oil six times a year, it's still a minuscule fraction of what I'd spend on fuel (or beer) over that same year.

When Fram made a corporate decision to cheapen construction of their most popular SKUs so the Big Box guys could sell them for $2.49, they limited it to the top-selling numbers. If you have a HD, ag, or less-popular import, you stand a chance of getting a decent filter. It's the trade-name (which escapes me - Duraguard?) that tags the junk filters.

Many years ago, Auto-X (now Grassroots Motorsports) magazine did a comprehensive test of popular oil filters. Wix won, Fram was way back in the pack.

But I'd submit to you, what better data-gathering device than your own eyes? Go to a Wix seller auto supply and look at the cutaways. Then use whichever you think represents the best value.

"Hugo Schmeisser" wrote in message news:P snipped-for-privacy@magma.ca...

The problem with trying to evaluate oil filter is knowing what is good enough. If the filter is too efficient at removing small particles, it will filter out stuff that won't damage the engine and load up faster, which may restrict flow through the filter and activate the bypass, allowing unfiltered oil to circulate. If it is not efficient enough at removing small particles, then the engine may be damaged. Some engines are very sensitive to oil draining back to the pan and require a very good anti-drainback valve. Other engines have the anti-drain back valve built into the oil system, or just don't need one. Old VWs didn't even have an oil filter. Growing up (60's and 70's), I was used to Fords and Dodges that used the relatively large spin on filters (FL1 / PH8A size) and was always surprised at the small filters on many GM engines (especially when you considered GM only required that they be changed every other oil change). In my opinion, today's conditions are less severe than they were 20 years ago - better oil, no lead in gasoline, better air filters, better pcv systems, fuel injection (less excess fuel), etc., etc., etc.. As a result oil filtration requirements are probably not as critical as they were 20 years ago. There are SAE tests available for evaluating filtering efficiency and capacity. However, these tests only tells you what the filter can do, not what is required for any particular engine and operating conditions.

Do I use Fram filters? - Nope. Is this based on knowledge that they are not good enough for the job? - No.

Personally I can't find any reason to use FRAM filters. They look cheaper, but generally cost about the same as better "looking" filters. I also don't like the multiple filter line scheme - why have two or three or four lines of filters for a given application? If the low cost filter is good enough for the application, why would you need the higher priced line? And in fact, in some applications, the low line Fram filter is not actually good enough - the Fram Extra Guard Equivalent to a Motorcraft FL-820S (Fram PH2) is not suitable for use on Ford modular motors because it has a crummy anti-drainback valve. The equivalent Fram Tough Guard Filter (TG2) has a better anti-drainback valve and is probably OK. However, it costs more than the Motorcraft part, so why would I use it?

My advice is simple - If you own a Ford, use the correct Motorcraft filter, a Chrysler, the correct Mopar filter, a GM product, the correct AC Filter, etc. The only exception for me is my Sister's Honda. You can't buy Honda filters at the local auto parts store and I try to avoid the local Honda dealer like the plague. So for her car I use a WIX filter. I can buy them for about the same as a Fram Extra Guard (the cheap line), and the local garage and auto parts stores have them in stock.

Ed

Rex B wrote: .

Hmmm...

# 4/10, November 1987. The article is called "Go with the Flow".They test eight different filters. Apparently you have to order a back issue before you're allowed to read any articles. Time for a trip to the library...

I tried to get some real data from publications of SAE and Southwest Testing Laboratories. They seem to have the data, but you have to have paid into the system to get it. Like all good mooches, I want something for nothing.

I hear you, Rex, but visual appearance doesn't always mean very much.

I have used Wix and all the major filters, including Fram. I have never had a problem with any of them. No case splitting, no leaking, no drain back valve problems...Nothing that I can tell. And my personal observations are just as worthless as appearance. Not detecting a problem doesn't mean there isn't one.

It is VERY common for manufacturers to have multiple levels of quality for different retail channels that all carry the exact same label and model#. Daniel Stern has a couple of good examples that he cites periodically. But the fact is that when a Walmart goes to a supplier like Fram and orders 100,000 filters at $1 each, (and they order the supplier to sell it to them at this price) what they get looks exactly the same as what a place like Checkers sells, but internally it's cheaper. And this happens in MANY other industries than auto parts.

Ted

I work with filters at my job(not oil filters) and know that what is important is what you can not see. I have not seen the displays but unless the displays have microscopic photos of the filter element it means nothing to me.

You can have titanium end caps, ground and lapped anti drain back valve and

20 sq ft of filter area but if the filter media is too porous or too impermeable, it will not work well. The "holes" in the filter media has to be the right size to trap harmful particles. There has to be a good ratio of open area (holes) to closed (structure) area to allow the oil flow freely.

There is an ASTM test to tell how well filters work. As far as I know there is no information on this available for automotive oil filters.

So, with the lack of information it is a crap shoot as to what works best. It is like the old saying "Which is better a Ford or a Chevy". It comes down to non tangibles. What you think is best.

I personally don't care how good Fram's media is; if the ADBV doesn't work it's still a piece of crap. It may provide the best filtration of any filter on the market, but when it takes 5+ seconds to build oil pressure it's still harming my engine.

nate

Scott Buchanan wrote:

...and likewise, you can have the best, most perfect filter media mankind knows how to make, but if the endcaps are porous and/or incompletely secured to the media, if the antidrainback valve is of an ineffective design, if there's manufacturing trash in the filter assembly, if the overpressure bypass valve opens too soon or not soon enough, it will not work well.

That's the whole point: Fram's filter media may be great and goovy, but it doesn't matter, because their materials and construction are garbage. And that *CAN* be seen and evaluated with the eyes and hands.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Fram is better at filtering than others. I am just saying that there is not enough information to know which filter is best.

I am not supporting Fram. The reason that I use Fram is that my dad used Fram filters.

I'm not supporting Fram either, contrary to what some might believe.

Granted, but a visual difference this striking has to count.

I was at an autocross in the late 1980s in Mineral Wells TX. A good friend competing in my class was running a 1986 Honda Prelude. In the midle of a run smoke erupted and he immediately parked. Pulled it back to the paddock and discovered his Fram filter can had burst. Wish I had kept it. This was a filter that had been on the car for almost 1000 miles. I have also talked to a dirt track racer who told me about pulling a collapsed Fram filter out of his race car. This was the canister type SB Chevrolet, where you just change the element. The oil-soaked cardboard had collapsed under oil pressure. The entire filter element was a compressed disk about an inch thick, stuck in the bottom of the cannister. When he showed it to his buddies, they said "I bet that was a Fram, wasn't it?"

Personally, I have only had one filter failure. That was on a Purolator Group 7, their old second line. It used a rubber washer bypass valve. My oil was getting dirty real quick, so I change it early. found the rubber ring sticking out the threaded center hole like a tongue.

With all due respect to your Dad, that's pretty lame. The Fram your dad did business with probably was a good, indpendent company that made a quality product at a reasonable price. That changed in the late 1970s when Honeywell bought them out and sold the Fram Soul to the Big Box devils, and screwed the traditional automotive aftermarket that put the company on the map.