How Not To Save Detroit

This is an excellent article. The street car companies doing much of what GM is accused to doing to them, but to the Jitney bus companies. The article makes it clear that the street car companies failed to compete against buses from the very begining and only lasted as long as they did through government action to destroy competition from bus companies.

Reply to
Brent
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How conveniently you ignore the costs of the ROADS that those vehicles run on. "Cheaper," in this case, is an illusion.

Reply to
Scott in SoCal

(At least in Government officials...)

Reply to
Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B

You're not making sense. I was there when the streetcars and trolleys in Chicago went the way of the dodo bird. The roads were already there. I saw them. You don't really think that streetcars came before roads, do you? All those tracks and trolleys did was make the streets harder to maintain. We're talking streetcars here, not interstate highways, or cross-country trains. What - is there a "bring back the streetcar" society or something? Yeah, and horses too. And slide rules. If you want to think that a bus with an engine is less economical and flexible than a system of tracks and wires, go right ahead.

--Vic

Reply to
Vic Smith

REALLY? How many times a month do you need to change the oil in a street car? How often to those rails wear out? The wires? You you have to REWIRE your house once a month? Here is a CLUE for you. They laid track for most of the Chicago "L" and subways in 1920. 90% of that track is still being used today. Same with the wires. They change the wheels on the cars about once every 10 years. Talk about retreads, they just get melted down and recast.. It costs much more to maintain a BUS - SORRY. Try again.

Reply to
krp

There is plenty blame to go around in the demise of street cars and trolley buses. I can't deny that public transportation suffed from bad management. Poor planning meant that the companies REFUSED to modernize or pay ANY attention to the realities of services. Such as having slightly bigger cars and more of them. Not being able to project ridership and have enough seats to handle the passengers. You saee the same BULLSHIT with airline overbooking today and the "SCREW YOU" attitude of airline management. (They learned that at HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL.) Of course a differemce IS that in 1940 The trolley company (Pacific Electric as AN example) did NOT nhave the benefit of computers. DELTA DOES!

None of this changes or makes go away what GM actually did. Although your articles ATTEMPT to rehab GM's behavior and ignore the totality of what was being done, they miss the mark.

Reply to
krp

What new affordable technology Brent? The problem with the streetcar companies is that they suffered from the SAME BUSINESS model that has now taken General Motors to the same place the street car companies were in

1955. That's because they both operated on the HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL model. Screw the customer has hard as you can and focus ONLY on the "BOTTOM LINE." Street car company managements refused to modernize. Refused to look at data that SHOULD have dictated changes. BOTTOM LINE! BOTTOM LINE! BOTTOM LINE! No reinvestment. Just get every penny out today you can and let tomorrow take care of itself, BOTTOM LINE! BOTTOM LINE! BOTTOM LINE!

Look at today's airline industry as a good study. Many of the largest airlines have been in bankruptcy and are STILL losing money at incredible rates. WHY? BOTTOM LINE! BOTTOM LINE! BOTTOM LINE! ALL HAIL HARVARD! Instead of making passengers MORE comfortable, the airlines are putting in MORE seats reducing leg room and hip room. Tell me, are Americans suddenly getting significantly SMALLER????? The typical flight is OVERBOOKED by 20%. And the airlines take a "TOUGH SHIT" attitude.

At least the trolley companies existed in a time when they didn't have computers to plan ridership. Airlines Do and say "SCREW YOU!"

The automobile was NOT all that affordable. Let's cut the shit. When Ford first started making his cars they cost as much as a HOUSE. There were almost NO gas stations. Cars were VERY expensive at first. And it is still cheaper to take a bus that operate a car today. You just can't do it.

GM conspired to kill competition. However - a point can be made that the transportation companies were complicit in their own demise. MOST of the rolling stock in street cars in America were 30 years old or older. San Francisco is STILL using cars built in the 19th century.

Reply to
krp

He ignores a great deal. How many ROADS lat 100 years without significant repair? How many OIL CHANGES does an electric trolley need in a month? How many "TIRES" does a trolley need in a year? Oh wait. The wheel usually last 20 years. SHIT!!!!!! He didn't figure that either. Seen the RINGS wear out on a trolley? Does a trolley's carburetor get gunked up? How many MUFFLERS does a street car use in a year? Those wires? Chicago has had it's "L" system for MORE than a century. MOST of those FRAGILE wires are ORIGINAL. SHIT there it goes again. REALITY!

Reply to
krp

The El and subway are still major people carriers. They use a 3rd rail, not trolley wires. And there's plenty of maintenance on the motors, which burn out every so many miles. One of my brothers used to work on them. Main reason they still exist is they are fairly efficient arterial people carriers which got their own private right-of-ways early. Or maybe the conspiracy didn't look up and down to see them. Streetcars and trolleys are a different story. They always had to share the streets with horses, cars and trucks, and were the only things that couldn't get out of their own way. They never went to all the places the buses go now, because nobody was foolish enough to lay track and hang wire on every street every half mile. Buses do that easily, and can immediately go to new routes, or abandon old ones, leaving nothing behind. And thems the FACTS, JACK.

--Vic

Reply to
Vic Smith

And the people who ELECT them?

Reply to
krp

Only streetcars I saw when growing up were on 47th Street. All cobblestone where the tracks were. The bus trolleys lasted longer, but just think about all that overhead wire.

The suggestion was made that with streetcars roads aren't necessary. You still need roads, and all the streetcars and trolleys I've seen were put on existing roads.

That's fine, and I'm for it if it works. Railed streetcars and electric trolleys don't. You'll never see it. Better to just put batteries on buses and work the required battery changing infrastructure than to hang wires all over the place.

--Vic

Reply to
Vic Smith

Because you want to know the truth about what happened?

Reply to
Scott in SoCal

You have already pointed out that most streetcar companies had to maintain the streets they ran on as part of their franchise agreements. These companies also had to pay taxes on any private ROW that they owned. Show me a bus company that had to pay these costs and I'll show you a bus line that was NOT cheaper than an equivalent streetcar line.

"Reduction" is the wrong word. "Transfer" is more accurate, as the costs of owning and maintaining the ROW that the vehicles run on was shifted from the private company to the taxpayers.

Reply to
Scott in SoCal

I heard it was so they could sell busses. It was a conspiracy started in the '20's, and it wasnt just big oil, they were in cahoots with Mack GM and Firestone. A big trolley/train station, long ago bought and boarded up by GM et al, just reopened as upscale condo's in LA. Lots of info on this starting here:

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GM/Chevron have the patent to the only proven affordable large format EV battery which has slowed EV development drastically.
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bastards...

Reply to
ben91932

.com...

ps.com...

Certainly plausible; the population I observe is NOT increasing in their reasoning capabilities.

Reply to
TedKennedyMurderedHisPregnantMistress.dwpj65

Perhaps you should read what was already written.

So now you're changing your tune. It wasn't GM that killed the street car, it was the incompetence of the street car companies themselves and their static business model rooted in political protection from the state. Oddly that's what I've been arguing. Glad you agree now.

<sniP>
Reply to
Brent

Started taking over means the majority. So throughout the 1950s it was not rare, but had significant market share. Thanks for agreeing.

Reply to
Brent

Safe to say I didn't vote for anyone that got elected?

Reply to
Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B

Yes, it causes BRAIN damage, right?

There were MANY MILES of track where tghere were NO roads when they were laid. Roads came later. Especially PAVED roads.

That's what light rail is. It has had marginal success in places like Salt Lake City. Buit as in the past there is no significant commitment to it.

It would be simpler to bury the power source and have a T shaped connector get the two poles.But that design has problems in the rain and snow. Which is why a SUBWAY system is the cheapest way to go.

Reply to
krp

wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@21g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...

TK> Certainly plausible; the population I observe is NOT increasing in TK> their reasoning capabilities.

The reasoning we have been reading in this thread certainly seems to prove the point.

Reply to
krp

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