How would you rate a typical driver (from 1 to 10)

Here is what was initially proposed in that thread ...

I wonder, actually, WHAT driving skills would actually rate a 10?

Seems to me, to be a 10, I'd assume a driver would need: a) To have over 25 years experience (if not, subtract five points) b) To have zero tickets (subtract 3 points for each ticket) c) To have zero accidents (subtract 4 points for each accident) d) To have both a motorcycle & car license (if not, subtract 5 points) e) To have taken at least a half dozen driving classes (add 2 points for each class) f) To be able to drive a stick & automatic & motorcyle (add 2 points for each) g) To have driven on the track at least once a year (add 2 points) h) To understand how an engine works (especially the oil, cooling, belts, etc. that can break while driving) i) To understand countersteer and ABS braking in detail etc.

And, you'd have to pass a test that asked 'real' driving questions, like: Q1: What roads do 3-digit federal highways connect to? Q2: Does ABS make you stop faster or straighter? Q3: What direction do you go if the orange construction stripes are from left to right? Q4: What direction are you going if you just passed mile 3 and the next mile is mile 4 on an even numbered two-digit federal highway? Q5: What is the difference between a white turn arrow painted in the road and a white turn arrow with 'must' or 'only'. Q6: Are shopping mall parking lot STOP signs legal or not? Q7: Can you dial a phone with push-button dialing in a hands-free state or not? etc.

Not at all, it permits you to understand where the limits of your vehicle and the other drivers' vehicles really are. That's important. I think it is experience that often gets overrated, but it's not useless.

Because some day it won't be.

It is, and it's irrelevant 99% of the time. But that 1% of the time when it turns out to be actually important, it's really, really important.

--scott

Yes, it is useless on the road. Anyone who is getting near or past the limits of their vehicle on the road really shouldn't be driving on the road.

I say that as someone who road powerful Japanese sportsbikes and owned various reasonably fast cars . The skidpand and defensive driving courses I've taken on the road are far, far more useful than the track experience that I have has ever been.

You didn't answer the question as to why the OPs mother needs to know that? It's irrelevant to nearly everyone. Their car gets serviced in a garage, belts get replaced as part of the schedule. On most cars these days, replacing even an alternator belt is beyond many home mechanics, so it's utterly irrelevant.

No, it really isn't. Especially not with a modern, safe European hatchback. If my mother (or wife's) car started sliding around, I'd much rather she just hit the brakes and the ESP/ABS brought her to a quick halt, rather than have her f*ck about slipping and sliding around and trying to keep the car out the trees. I've experimented myself with a couple of cars with ESP and ABS - all cars in the EU must be sold with both now anyway. My mum's Kia is impressive for a small car. I put it into a ridiculous roundabout corner in the wet and hit the brakes to see what happened. I expected the rear to come round and it to try and spin. It just stopped. In my older Saab 900 SPG or Focus, that would have been a hairy lift-off oversteer moment. In my mum's tiny little Kia, it was nothing at all.

Significantly overrated by some, including people on this thread. The technical skills of driving are much less important than the mental skill of knowing your personal limits and being able to keep to them, ie not getting angry etc.

Disagree. There are plenty of mechanical failures which can't be dealt with at the roadside. If you're worried about them, get breakdown cover, at which point the rest of the failures become irrelevant too.

In Norway use of ABS is part of the test, and I think skid pan might be too. This might of course be rather more relevant there :-)

Learning that if you lose grip it's not the end of the world is a useful skill. But this has to be balanced with the mental ability to keep from abusing that skill in normal driving.

There's very little, bar a puncture, a blown bulb/fuse or loose wire that I could deal with at the roadside on a Xantia.

Diesel lift pump :-( Though I did eventually fix it at the roadside (or rather where I'd parked it), it just took a couple of days to get the new pump first.

I did try the headlamp bulb at the roadside, but got bored and drove the

15 miles home instead - rather easier in the light. And the other one definitely needs tools - I think I'd have to remove the headlamp.

Yours is an S2 isn't it? Yes, you do, unless you have curiously deformed hands.

I've been in several accidents, but none were my fault. Do I lose points for that? :)

rote:

I agree some people overrate it, and especially that it is not useless. With sufficient experience, a sudden need for the skill can be the difference between driving away and not. For example, if someone suddenly drops off a bridge in front of you on the highway, most people would either freeze and hit them, with or without panic braking, or over-react and go out of control. I know I've saved my butt several times hitting sand or gravel on street motorcycles and having dirt-track experience kick in. The same with unexpected skids from oil and water on the road, the adrenaline makes time seem to slow down and you just go into drift mode. Thinking about some incidents afterwards I've gotten the shakes...

Don't agree with that, see above examples. The benefit comes with knowing the techniques when suddenly presented with an unusual situation.

Anger control is a separate skill learned off the track. Haven't you ever seen an F1 driver jump out and fight a competitor who just hit them?

I'd go further and point out how many sports cars like the Porsche Boxster don't even let you do basic maintenance without an engine hoist and special equipment. The mechanicals are black boxes, which may upset many old-timers, but I think is countered by how long you can go without having to do anything.

I think more so here (I'm in southern California), as rain and snow skills are so rarely exercised. One of the problems here is it will rain after months of dry, and oil will leach out of the cement and sit on top of the water. The freeways turn into destruction derbies, highway patrol won't even bother to respond to minor crashes.

A few years ago, Chevrolet took some Corvettes on a marketing tour, with switches to turn off the ABS. They soaped up a skid pad and let the general public go at it, with ABS off and on. Fun!

That's correct, but all relative. I remember driving "slowly" on the freeway after a race, as it seems so pointless off the track, getting a ticket for 70MPH in a 55 zone.

jg

As to your question - I would rate the typical driver as a 5. I'd rate myself as a perfect "10." From the looks of your rating system you'd probably rate yourself in the mid-twenties. I'm no 10 but my guess is that you're no 25 either. :-)

Doesn't make any difference IF your a crappy driver or not.

Doesn't make a difference, just that you're either lucky or in an area with little police coverage.

I know a BUNCH of folks who drive and haven't hit or been hit. Most of them I wouldn't want to be in the vehicle with because they are scary bad behind the wheel.

Fine then add a few points for those of us who hold CDL's.

I take EVOC on a yearly basis, doesn't do much other than show that you can set through the class and maneuver fire equipment.

Can handle all the above, PLUS twin stick and splitter transmissions, two speed rear axles and more. Still doesn't mean I can drive worth a crap.

Gave up track driving a few years ago, just got WAY to expensive.

Can tear them down with my eyes closed, and could even build one out of billet if needed. Doesn't make any difference in on road ability.

What about understeer, trail braking, apex cornering, effects of tire pressure on handling????

How about what the difference is in even vs odd numbering, or if interstates the difference between an even numbered connection and an odd numbered. Or maybe how you can determine address numbers from road direction?

Sometimes, However it can also increase the stopping distance against a good foot on the brakes.

Don't use orange stripes around here. Just line tape and cones with arrows, and the occasional flag-person.

If the road is properly marked you would be going West and be 3-4 miles from the state line. BUT that doesn't always apply because some roads are marked wrong.

In theory you can drive straight across an unmarked arrow BUT in reality they are all the same.

Depends on the state and locality.

Sure, as long as you're not behind the wheel driving the vehicle at the time.

You don't have a monopoly on that. It happens everywhere.

Unless you are driving like a total moron and/or have worn out tyres/ are exceeding a safe speed for the conditions, there is little difference between driving on a wet and greasy road, or a dry one.

Of course, it helps if you have to have a mandatory inspection once a year where the important parts of your vehicle are tested - tyres, brakes, steering, suspension etc, but as far as I am aware, all that happens in CA is a smog test every 2 years on cars over 4 years old, and no safety inspection...

Disagree - see later.

Not watched F1 since the 80s. But anger control is something it's important to have both on the track and rather more importantly on the road. "Red mist" causes rather too many crashes.

I think you're doing a very good job of proving my point. You'd not mentally adjusted to road driving, and weren't taking enough care. Though I admit it's very easy to do based on experiences driving home after karting...

You admit to pushing your driving/riding such that you scare yourself on the roads, and that is more dangerous than somebody with less skill driving well within their limits. You may have l33t technical driving skills, but on the road they're not the most important thing - what's important is knowing your own limits and keeping well within them.

Your car and bike handling may be exemplary, you may be really very fast round a track, but for road driving you lack the mental ability to refrain from abusing that skill, and that means you're not going to be an excellent driver on the road.

Well, quite. The most famous incident is the Piquet-Salazar one. I have watched pretty much every F1 race since 1983. I can't recall it happening.

Being the incident everyone remembers. Of course, there's been a couple since, like Mansell grabbing Senna by the throat in the pits, Schuey wandering down to Coulthard's pit in Belgium 98 after MS hit DC in the rain, but that's all. It simply doesn't happen.

Of course, in comedy racing series like NASCAR and Indycar/CART it does, but that's because the drivers and cars aren't really that great .

This is exactly what the ex-instructor I know (and I suspect you are aware of who I mean) , and who is giving me some tuition in September, says..

Yes the control is important, but the anger causes road rage, not crashes. More likely to get you shot 'round here.

Of course, what are most crashes caused by: lack of attention, stupidity, DUI, inability to respond appropriately to a sudden event.

Well, I guess you understandably don't have the context for that speeding ticket example. These are freeways engineered for 75MPH speeds (or more accurately, Air Force plane landing speeds), but with a ridiculous 55MPH speed limit. The Nevada LEO intimated as much, giving me a "Waste Of Natural Resources" ticket and explaining it wouldn't even appear on my CA driving record, just pay the fine.

You seem to be misreading me in a most dense fashion. I don't have any need to push, I'm talking about sudden change in environment. Those with the skills can immediately adapt, those without crash.

I saw one right in front of me a while back. 5 lanes of moderate SB5 traffic (I'm reading this in ca.driving), clear sunny day. Idiot in SUV in third lane from the left changes lane cutting off second SUV. Second SUV over-reacts, turns hard right, goes up on 45 degree slope landscaping, comes back down, bounces hitting bumper on pavement, rolls spectacularly, glass, luggage and parts flying everywhere in random walks. I just slowed down and drove around it all. What could the crasher have done? The same thing. Knowing limits is irrelevant when all you can do is instinctively react. Such "instinct" is strongly influenced by experience. Just generally driving around does not give you that experience.

Now that people are recognizing this, commercial interests are creating schools for teenage and elderly drivers. They seem to be working.

I can't imagine you are a very good driver if you think your mental state is more important than the physical reality.

jg

Many if not most... real... instructors, both road and track, feel the same.

The basic problem is that additional training, both road and track, too often leads to overconfidence on the street when it should instill more caution and doubt.

"High performance street driving" classes are complete bullshit. You'll have a hard time finding a crash if you merely comply with traffic code and exercise a little foresight and caution. -----

- gpsman

And red mist, leading to stupid overtaking attempts on blind corners or into incoming traffic, or many other stupid things that are not to do with car control.

So, you were on a track, and you didn't mentally adjust to road driving.

Thanks for proving Clive's point so well.

This appears to exclude yourself, as you don't appear to be able to adapt from track to road conditions even NOT immediately.

You're not doing well here..

Have you enrolled for some lessons? You appear to need some.

In my experience, those that think they are excellent drivers usually aren't..

Mostly a dumb list having little or nothing to do with whether someone is a good driver on PUBLIC roads.

- how smoothly is your driving, i.e. are you always on and off the gas and brake, jerking the wheel, etc, or do you mostly drive at a uniform speed along with the rest of traffic; do you anticipate the "next event" so you can brake smoothly, esp if you have passengers, instead of bouncing peoples heads off the dashboard and headrests.

- how often do the cars around you get surprised by something you do?

- how often do you wind up doing really hard braking because you failed to anticipate what might happen ahead of you.

- how often are you cussing out the drivers around you?

- How often are you at fault in an accident? how often are you in an accident that the other person was the real cause of but that you could have avoided if you'd been paying more attention to what was going on around you?

- how often do you get a ticket? The ticket itself is not necessarily the issue, the fact that you can't drive and anticipate where a cop might be waiting is the issue.

The shorter version of this is:

- how often are YOU surprised by what happens around you

- how often do you surprise OTHERS by what you do.