new head - to re-ring or not

I seem to be picking up a lot of dissonance on this issue. All over the net I see people tell stories about how they took in their high mileage head for a valve job and milled flat, and they were thrilled that the motor ran like new thereafter, perhaps with a gasket shim to restore original compression. However, I also see many recommendations to never do such a thing without re-ringing, because the rings are sure to fail soon afterwards. It seems like the success side is comprised of anecdotes, whereas the non-success side is comprised of generalizations.

In theory, I understand how the failures are supposed to occur. But why do people bother with valve jobs then? Are these proclamations of successful top end work on an old bottom end simply naive as to the inevitable ring job that is coming to them?

Is a dry-wet compression test and a visual examination of how pronounced the cylinder ridge is enough to determine whether or not a given block is a suitable candidate for a valve job? If not, what else can you do besides guess at it with knowledge of the mileage and maintenance history?

I've got the block and piston tops all cleaned up waiting for either the new head, or the old head - which has four exhaust valves of four different colors.

What about using the new head but installing some or all of the old valves in it? Then I have the new guides, stem seals, springs and camshaft at least, but it would remain leaky enough to be "nice" to the bottom end. Or maybe install the old intake valves which look reasonably okay; since there's 8 of them and only 4 exhaust valves which would be new, would that be leaky enough to not bother the rings? This whole idea may be bad because I suspect the guides would need to stay with the valves they have worn to fit.

Another possibility is that I could get a HG shim to back off the compression a little, again to be "nice" to the rings. But I'm not sure if that would help with the drag on the oil ring as the piston moves down.

Anyway, please post your experiences in this area. Did a valve job finish off your rings, or did it renew things until it was time for a new car? What about customers or friends who did the same?

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Of course, I'd also like some comforting words, given that I've already bought an exchange head for my well-maintained but gasket-leaky 190k Isuzu motor. :-) Coolant leak in #4 pocked up the piston, hard carbon in #1 and #2 that I think came either from guides or the leaky valve cover - at least a dry-wet test didn't point to the rings if I understand the results correctly. I ran Pennzoil 5W-30 with never more than 3000 miles between changes and most often far less. The motor has never used any oil except at sustained high-RPM driving. (A leaking distributor seal and external HG leak may have contributed to this.) Recently, the internal coolant leak became significant enough to foul up my oil and give me occasional pops on the highway, probably where the piston #4 pock marks came from. So that got me on the stick to take care of it. Originally I planned to be done in two days. That's turned into four and still going... but I want to do it RIGHT.

Re-ringing is not an option at this point because of the time frame and my lack of experience or anyone to help me with it. (Just to get the oil pan off, front exhaust pipe and crossmember have to come out, then on the top, ridges reamed, cylinder honed or possibly pulled and re-bored due to uneven wear, new pistons and wrist pins, ring compressor needed, don't install rings upside down, correct breakin procedure, etc) I just need to figure out the right way to proceed. If I have to eat the exchange head to do the right thing, so be it.

Reply to
Ryan Underwood
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Ryan, just go ahead and put the new head on. You have about a 80% - 90% chance, given that the engine wasn't burning oil before, of it being perfectly fine for a very reasonable period of time. I have never had a valve job do anything but good for the overall health of any engine - but on the other hand I haven't been tempted to do a valve job or rebuilt head on a trashed bottom end either - and it doesn't sound like your engine is in anything but normal health for an older engine. Don't screw up now by listening to nay-sayers - and don't start taking your nice new head apart and trying to swap valves around!

Brian

Reply to
Brian

If you don't have time and money to re-do the engine completely, then just put it back together and run with it.

People do valve jobs when their valves are burned or warped and no longer seal. Power loss is dramatic when this happens. On some engines, I have seen most of the valves burned before

60,000 miles. Clearly, this is not an old engine, and a valve job can bring them back to life. (Setting the valves, lifters, etc properly after the valve job can help prevent this from recurring)

If you have 150,000 miles, then engine is getting pretty long in the tooth. Either put it back together and run as long as you can, or renew the engine. Sometimes you can get a low mileage engine from a junk car and swap it right in. I have bought excellent junker engines with lots of life left in them for $100-500.

Reply to
<HLS

I usually judge them according to oil pressure. If the bottom end is worn out, the oil pressure will be low and the compression will be low so on those engines, it is debatable to me whether or not to do the top end.

If the oil pressure is still ok, then lots of folks do valve jobs with no issues at all.

Most failures are on beat engines that need the full rebuild.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Ryan Underwood wrote:

Reply to
Mike Romain

Sure, it would be desireable to overhaul an engine completely every so often. If you are racing for big bucks it may even pay.

However, it is not practical for most of us for our private vehicles. I am not so sure that the additional compression will make rings go faster. I am under the impression that total piston travel is the big thing on ring wear.

Remember, too. Peak hp may go up as CR is restored, but how often do we run our passenger cars at peak hp? If the CR is up a bit, we'd ord> I seem to be picking up a lot of dissonance on this issue. All over the net

Reply to
Don Stauffer

I don't think it causes the rings to fail. I think it just exacerbates the symptoms of any existing excessive wear in the rings or cylinder walls in a generally tired old engine. (And is often tried by people who don't want to confront the fact that they've got a generally tired old engine, and are going through the relatively cheap or easy fixes first.) Then the compressed gasses have fewer places to escape from, with the properly sealing valves and head gasket, so they take the path of least resistance out the bottom and make the characteristic light-blue cloud of exhaust.

If yours is *not* a generally tired old engine, but has a specific problem wih the head, valves, or head gasket, give it a go.

Best of luck,

--Joe

Reply to
Ad absurdum per aspera

Any idea how I could test oil pressure on a car without an oil gauge? Anyway, it's a moot point because the motor would have to be back together to check it. In the future when I do this, I'll be ready with teh dry-wet compression test, oil pressure, and cylinder wear figures.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out here is if such failure is more likely to be "hmm, my oil is getting dirty quicker and I'm burning more of it" or "hmm, a piece of my ring is now holding a valve open, and this otherwise wouldn't have happened"

Reply to
Ryan Underwood

My guess would be the first scenario because that 'is' going to happen some day anyway....

If the engine was running decent before, that shouldn't change too fast. I have a Jeep 4.0L engine with over 300K km on it and if it needed it, I would still put a new head on that.

It isn't an oil burner now, so I wouldn't expect it to become one. Mine now uses a liter between change times, a little more if we run her hard in 4x4 low.

The vehicles that fail are usually already consuming more oil than they should, have low oil pressure, low on power, tend to run hot, or are run at high rpm, etc.....

Mike

Ryan Underwood wrote:

Reply to
Mike Romain

I don't know exactly what you are expecting someone to be able to tell you. You have an engine with 190k miles on it... That's a lot of miles for any engine and no one here can tell you what is going to happen when you put a new head on it. It doesn't matter what happened with mine or what happened with Joe Bob's pappys car back in 19 and

  1. I'm not trying to be rude but you stuck between a rock and a hard place here. If your not going to re-do the bottom end in any case it doesn't matter what anyone on the internet says... Put the thing back together and see what happens. If it smokes like a chimney then you have your answer and all you are out is some time and a head gasket. If it runs for another 100k without burning a drop of oil you win.

Put all your hokey ideas about moving around valves aside and put the car back together.

Good Luck Steve B.

Reply to
Steve B.

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