Read this before you buy

ESC is considered to be the greatest advance in safety since the seatbelt. It will be required on all 2012 cars, but it's still optional or not available on some 2010 and 2011 models:

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Reply to
Tom Adams
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Tom Adams wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@i5g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:

Perfect for people that have no idea how to drive a car. Required for badly designed cars like this one:

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Reply to
chuckcar

snipped-for-privacy@i5g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:

In general, cars are among the worst designed consumer products, close to the worst of all.

Your has a 1 in 500 chance of killing you. Add up all the cars you will own and that gets you to 1 in 85. And that does not even include all the non-fatal injuries.

What's worse than that? Cigarettes are the only one I can think of.

BTW: If you had the slightest idea of what you are talking about, you would have linked to a picture of some SUV, not a sedan.

Reply to
Tom Adams

Tom Adams wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@d25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:

If you did you wouldn't use superlatives in decribing it.

Lighten up FCS. You don't recognise anyone in that shot?

You don't seem to have much consistancy in what you say either:

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Look it's a crutch. What would remove it is tougher driving tests and retests. Nothing else other than a massive increase in police employment is going to work. In Finland for example, you have to be able to do a powerslide to get a licence. ABS is necessary in emergencies. Traction control is another crutch for people who simply can't get a feel for driving and is only useful in race cars. Perhaps it increases tire life, but that's it.

BTW *no* one survives an encounter with a moose. It's purely a roll of the dice. Except for the case where you're on a well lit straight as an arrow road where you can see the thing 1/4 mile ahead of you, you simply can't do anything.

Reply to
chuckcar

snipped-for-privacy@d25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:

What a joke, you are not aware that ABS didn't pan out. No evidence it ever saved a single life.

If you want to drive at the edge of oversteer and understeer, hit the off button.

Your bizarre opinions don;t change the facts: 1 person will die for every 1500 or so new motor vehicles sold without ESC between now and the start of the 2012 model year (when it's mandated).

Reply to
Nancy Adams

Nancy Adams wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@k10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:

Then you've never read any newpapers. It happens daily. If you stop in a shorter distance - assuming you're not some idiot that doesn't wear seatbelts and fly out the windshield - it simply does.

When there *is* one. There isn't far more often than the reverse. And do

*don't* turn it off for such. Just the reverse. I assume you're talking about Traction control here - the above appeared after my sig and no where near any relevant paragraph of mine.

You have an actual study to back this up?

I'll tell you what will give you even better stats: ban consumer SUV purchases in cases where they're not actually needed. By SUV's I mean: crossovers, minivans, what are *actually* called SUV's, vans and trucks. All the above serve a purpose, but are rarely bought for such.

They're already declining in sales and there's a glut on the market. Has been for a few years now.

Reply to
chuckcar

snipped-for-privacy@k10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:

"Most important, however, was the observation that the stopping distances during the braking manoeuvres were not any shorter in the presence of ABS than with standard brakes."

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I was talking about ESC, sorry for the confusion.

European, NHTSA and IIHS field studies show about a 1/3 reduction in fatalities for ESC. The average risk for a motor vehicle is 1/500, hence 1/1500.

ESC has roughly equalized the risk for SUVs vs sedans.

Reply to
Tom Adams

My 2006 Hyundai Sonata has ESC, there's a button on the dash to turn it off. My guess is that if your car has ABS, adding this feature is mostly a software change.

I think it's a great advance although I suspect it might increase your chances for rollover accidents in high center of gravity vehicles.

Reply to
dsi1

ESC makes the vehicle more stable and extends the basic stability envelope. The thing is, there's still an edge to that envelope, it's just in a different place. The end consequence of this is that the point where the system becomes unstable is more difficult to hit, but it's also more unstable at that point than it otherwise would be.

ESC does make a bloated and ungainly vehicle easier to drive. Personally I don't think this is a good thing because I think the _last_ thing we need is to encourage more people to drive bloated and ungainly gas-guzzlers.

You can take the attitude that ESC is a bad thing because it takes control effectively away from the driver and hands it to an automated system. But on the other hand, if you look at most of the drivers on the road today, an automated system can probably do better. Hell, a trained gorilla can probably do better.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

Tom Adams wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@m15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:

Not to labour over this minor point, but you don't *hear* about accidents that don't happen either. you *do* hear about declines in auto accidents however.

Perhaps, but being one study and the fact that there's lots of room for problems with the method used for experimentation. Taking people out of the equation and just using an automated device for example would give uniform results. That's if one included a method for such a device to detect when brakes are locked without ABS present and can react in human reation times. ABS reacts faster to such and that's why any discussion saying it doesn't work better is going to be met with scepticism from me. I also don't particularly like that it's a psychologist massaging the data. Another thing is that people make errors in real world situations. So even if they did better things than the ABS for slowing down, there'd still be that factor making it worse on occasion.

Which could simply be the fact that the SUV's don't flip over because the driver doesn't ever find out what is needed to so such without ESC. Hence my use of the term crutch.

I don't doubt that. That's the whole point of it: stopping roll by taking control out of the driver's hands. It still doesn't make a SUV a good design for emergencies on an equal playing field however. That is with *both* without ESC of course. In addition, there can be mistakes in the code of ESC which make it worse than a proper test driver would do in the same situation.

Reply to
chuckcar

For basic ESC, you have to add a position sensor on the steering wheel and a MEMS gyroscope to sense yaw. Otherwise, its software.

The economics are kind of interesting. The NHTSA estimated that its cost about $200 per vehicle to add ESC. But the only 2010 Honda Fit that has ESC (the Sport trim) is $4000 more than the base model. I suspect that sort of markup/packaging is generally the case on the models where optional. But in 2012 all base models must have it, and I assume the markup will be close $200.

The field studies indicate that it prevents a large percentage of rollovers in SUVs.

Reply to
Tom Adams

snipped-for-privacy@m15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:

If it's a crutch then you are a disabled person, because you lack the ability to independently control the braking of each of your four wheels at the same time. ESC does that. If you don't think you are disabled without it, then start calling it an enhancement.

Its hard to know your car's limits in all kind of driving conditions and avoidance manuevers. It may be that everyone who thinks they do is living in dreamland.

Yeah. I think a sedan with ESC is better than an SUV with ESC. Assuming other safety features are comparable.

Reply to
Tom Adams

Hyundai has made this standard on most of their line in 2006. My 2006 Sonata also has 6 airbags. Rather remarkable for cars with a base of $18,000.

My guess is that the field studies are misleading. We'll find out.

Reply to
dsi1

Tom Adams wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@l6g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:

Look, I realize you probably (almost certainly) own a minivan, and this is in no way criticizing your choice to have one. It only refers to ESC and the dangerous combination that creates IMHO.

Now you're being deliberately obtuse. Any mechanism that hides a vehicles suspension behavior until the center of gravity is completely overcome just make it more dangerous when you reach that point. And you'll reach it without knowing beforehand. Read Scott's reply if you want it in other words.

Certainly those who buy cars with ESC are doing such. Anyone who *tries* to find such outside of the controlled environment of a race track are idiots and are just passing time before either their licence is rescinded or they kill themselves. Cars and certainly minivans (or whatever They get called this week).

Only if you're driving a race car is it necessary or usable. However they call traction control as race cars don't flip unless they get help.

Reply to
chuckcar

snipped-for-privacy@l6g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:

I own a 2008 Accord.

I think a sedan with ESC is a better choice than a minivan with ESC.

When ESC engages it slows the car while stabilizing it and it turns on a instrument panel light indicating that ESC is engaged. It does not hide the suspension behavior. People typically feel like they are out of control just before ESC kicks in.

In order to overcome ESC with the laws of nature you have to be way over the limit (in terms of speed) before you try to turn the steering wheel. ESC this all happens before ESC can detect anything. Since it can't detect it, it does not hide it.

You have traction control confused with ESC. Traction control operates during acceleration and it does not require input from a gyroscope.

They don't put ESC on racecars because it will slow them down. The car will engage in automatic braking.

ESC reduces flipping indirectly by reducing oversteer and understeer. Oversteer and understeer are so common on racecars that they have a special names for them, tight and loose. But racecar drivers can maintain control of racecars at higher speeds without ESC under normal racing conditions. It's not clear that racecar drivers can do better under the range of normal driving conditions. Depending on the sport, they stop the race when it rains and they don't even schedule a race with it could be icy.

Reply to
Tom Adams

quoted text -

Why do you think they are misleading? They are retrospective studies of vehicles people actually bought and drove, essentially identical models with and without ESC.

Reply to
Tom Adams

There's not that many SUVs with ESC. You should probably wait for a couple of years to get more data. If it does reduce rollovers by 70% that's great. I'm not going to get all excited just yet.

Reply to
dsi1

Tom Adams wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@i3g2000yql.googlegroups.com:

No, you're wrong there. Its action bypasses normal suspension behavior - by changing the weight distribution with braking and increased power to certain wheels.

Finally, it's clear you've been suckered by the salemen and have no interest in listening to or hearing about the dangers of such. Your "correction" of my point about Traction control is flawed in subtle ways I won't go into for the same reasons. Traction control *uses* differing drive to different wheels to allow for greater grip on *all* four tires. That's exactly what ESC does - balances the car.

Everyone reaches a point when they know a discussion isn't getting anywhere. I've seen that here.

Reply to
chuckcar

snipped-for-privacy@i3g2000yql.googlegroups.com:

You are wrong in saying it hides its actions. It turns a dashboard icon on when it activates. Your owner's manual tells you that you are driving dangerously if the ESC icon comes on and that you should slow down. Also, the driver feels the car go out of control before ESC kicks in. The car has to oversteer or understeer a bit in order for the gyroscope to detect its lack of registration with the steering wheel position sensor before ESC kicks in and the driver will feel this oversteer or understeer as a loss of control.

Reply to
Tom Adams

There have been SUVs with ESCs since 1999. More than 1/3 of SUV models had it when the studies were conducted. It was standard on all SUVs as of the 2009 model year.

Reply to
Tom Adams

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