the more things change ...

Of course, the automakers, the highwaymen of this millenium, want to complicate their systems so that none but they can work on them, using only parts they can access, and at any price they want.

Nothing new here.

GM is a ring leader of this, but not the only one to want to capitalize on it.

That is one of the reasons I get really pissed when some newbie here recommends that you take the car "to the dealer".

Dealers ASS. That just feeds the devil. Support the good people out there who study and work and try to offer an alternative to this madness.

"hls" wrote in news:Fr2dnWsgRZnEbarWnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Regulating mechanics so they don't screw customers by replacing unnecessary parts and outright lying without repercussions would be a good change to help that.

Correct. The same cries were heard when alternators replaced generators, when electronic ignition replaced points, when catalytic convertors started showing up, when fuel injection replaced carburetors.

How exactly is GM the ring leader? I can't think of any other company that has made technical training more available for free to the independent service shops than GM or one of its subsidiaries.

If the independents won't step up to the plate and get the training they need and invest in real equipment, what other alternative is there?

Those who you say should be supported should deserve the support first don't you think?

Wrong vent... The article had nothing to do with replacing unnecessary parts or lying mechanics other than mechanics who happen to lie about the availability of service information and equipment.

More levels of bureaucracy isn't going to do anything other than increase costs to the consumer.

fred wrote in news:Xns9CEEEFA4DF4A1fred@127.0.0.1:

Mechanics are already regulated through occupational licensing.

And I don't think I've ever personally encountered outright fraud in any of my dealings with professionals.

I /have/ seen plenty of examples of ignorance, incompetence and laziness, with any cover-up efforts being designed to hide the effects of that ignorance, incompetence and laziness.

My personal belief is that even as automobile design has become more and more sophisticated over the decades, the same sorts of individuals tend to be drawn to the trade as always have been.

So you now have a lot of "technicians" who would have been perfectly competent learning the little required to change points or adjust brakes, but are wholly incompetent to service/repair a modern DOHC Toyota Tercel engine with OBD-II.

And sadly this is not specific to the auto industry either.

When I was in high school, I was not allowed to take auto shop because only students with poor academic performance were allowed in auto shop. Thirty years later, it's hard to find mechanics with the kind of skills needed to fix modern cars. There is a connection between these two things.

--scott

You must never have been to a Firestone Auto Center, Sears Auto Center, Midas Auto center, Just Brakes, AAMCO, etc.

Ashton Crusher wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Or maybe I'm just being too kind. Maybe I'm ascribing to ignorance, incompetence and laziness what were actually attempts at defrauding me.

snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:hham6v$3hj$ snipped-for-privacy@panix2.panix.com:

My high school had no such restriction, but the kind of students you mention were exactly the sort which tended to gravitate towards auto shop and other such "vocational" classes. These were often the same "tough", "cool" kids who hung out in the smoking area.

Auto shop meant little reading or writing, and mostly hands-on grease- monkey work. Suited them just fine.

I believe so too.

People who are mechanically and electrically intelligent and inquisitive, as well as fastidiously methodical and careful, tend not to end up as auto mechanics. There are plenty of other occupations which are more appealing to individuals with those characteristics.

The good mechanics ARE out there, but they are very few and very far between. I have one of them available for myself. He's excellent, but he's getting close to retirement. I don't know what I'm going to do when he finally steps down.

That is true. The alternator was a far cry from some of the systems today that are integrated because it give a degree of control and guaranteed income. There are quite a few of this.

********** Apparently they are narrowing the noose on freeness. GM was one of the first, to my knowledge, to try to engineer systems that only they should be able to capitalize upon. This was brought up a few years ago, and Ian (Shiden Kai) (whom I respect greatly) confirmed that this is true, and accelerating.

Absolutely they should deserve the support, by excellence in what they do, and sound and ethical business practices. I always figured you to be one of those people.

Tegger wrote in news:Xns9CEF6EA3821tegger@208.90.168.18:

I see what you're saying, but making the profession an actual profession like lawyers, engineers and doctors with training certification and possible disbarment in certain circumstances by peers would change things a lot.

fred wrote in news:Xns9CEF8CCDF8E3Efred@127.0.0.1:

I'd prefer to see policemen and bureaucrats subject to that, myself. They do much more damage than bad auto mechanics.

Tegger wrote in news:Xns9CEFB06FC4A89tegger@208.90.168.18:

Police already are. Politicians are basically nothing more than uneducated gadflies IMHO.

I think burocrats are hopeless. They are Orwells pigs.

I HAVE seen policemen who are professional, calm, and just...In the UK and in Europe. Not here in Dogpatch.

Heaven is a place where: The lovers are Italian The chefs are French The mechanics are German The police are English It's all organized by the Swiss

Hell is a place where: The lovers are Swiss The chefs are English The mechanics are French The police are German It's all organized by the Italians

It doesn't seem to have done much good for doctors and lawyers.

--scott

Im not sure I understand what you mean, Scott. Are you saying that doctors and lawyers have not distinguished themselves by the so-called professional codes that are in place?

I think the lawyers clearly havent. The doctors have held a little higher ground.

snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:hhbj1g$lfh$ snipped-for-privacy@panix2.panix.com:

A bit too generalized to comment on other than it all depends on how it all is done.

Just got off the phone with my son, who's in Australia. They have a required auto inspection program there. He bought a beater Toyota for 400 bucks, and it had to be inspected. First certified shop wanted $1000 for new shocks to pass it. Second certified shop passed it with a weld on the exhaust and new wiper blades - 60 bucks total. He didn't need wiper blades.

--Vic