...just why Sudden Unintended Acceleration is virtually impossible.
The author does not mention it, but the NHTSA closely regulates the design of the electronic throttle and its firmware. It is, by design, not possible to "hack" into the firmware in order to modify or disable it.
This is true to be sure. The fed has regulated and are culpable in any court action. They know it too. Although the fed cannot be sued directly, they can be called as witness. They would not like that much.
Tegger wrote in news:Xns9D46D48D312C4tegger@208.90.168.18:
No. You'd have to have to have the pin that enables erasing/rewriting of the EEPROM/EAPROM IC used and the hardware (electric and electronic) to support it to be able to do it. One *could* however physically take the ROM out and completely rewrite it, if you could rebuild the module you destroy by doing this. That is entirely possible and anyone could do it with enough technical knowledge, ability and the right pieces. Anyone can buy a PROM programmer.
That's all beyond the scope of such an article of course, but it shows what is involved in doing it sucessfully.
I'd bet good money that all race cars have a connector for just this purpose.
The article was very good and I believe the conclusions are correct (i.e., it is not the electronics). I do wonder about your statement. Anything to back it up? Exactly how does NHTSA closely regulate the design? The firmware is in the ECM, and people are constantly screwing with that. My son has some sort of programer that allows him to screw up the ECM in his Mustang (and I do mean screw it up). I looked at the Toyota shop manual for the RAV4 and it appears to me all the throttle control stuff is handled by the ECM, so I can't see how that is any more secure than any of the other firmware.
Ed
I think in Indycar (or CART) they had the ability to do this while the race was in progress! That has since been ruled out IIRC.
Of course it wasn't reprogramming the EEPROM on the fly, but changing the parameters in RAM.
chuckcar wrote in news:Xns9D46D713F7AC1chuck@127.0.0.1:
Of course. And you could take a roll of sheet steel and turn it into a car body; you could turn a steel billet into a fully-automatic firearm; you could turn a bag of lawn fertilizer into a bomb.
Surely, but nobody's alleging tampering. Instead the allegations are of defects from the factory, and that's where the silliness comes in.
Power Lines Cited As Possible Cause of Runaway Toyotas.
Those dang pesky power lines! cuhulin
Ed White wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@r27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
A Toyota MDT told me this. He and his cohorts have received extensive factory training on the electronic throttle as part of the normal dealership-tech training. And they've had some very intensive additions to that training on account of the recent controversies
Couldn't tell you. I can only relate what I've been told by my /very/ reliable source: The electronic-throttle firmware is NOT modifiable; its circuitry is independent of anything else that might control the engine.
Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote in news:hoh2oo$4e7$ snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal-september.org:
Yes, they recently banned something similar in Formula 1. The teams were changing the driving/handling characteristics with a two way radio link. Telemetry going one way and that the other. They finally ended it a couple years back. They had Microsoft create a standard ECU for all teams.
Can *you* say: "my visor has gone completely blue and is covered with unreadable numbers and letters?
snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net wrote in news:25660-4BAC14C4-4980@storefull-
3172.bay.webtv.net:
I walked past a car today and it suddenly accelerated out of control and crashed into a bus stop full of schoolkids! Then it kept going and went through a store window! I blame my iPod, which I had to almost full-volume.
For myself, and most people, I assume, a car (in my case, my van) is a vehicle/a way/a means for getting from point A to point B, C, wherever.Do most people when they buy a new car/truck/van really ''dig'' all of those new fangled complex computerized things which are built into their vehicles, like the tv commercials show on tv? Think of the money that can be saved, the much less down time of their vehicles in the repair shops.The convenience of owning a much more simpler and dependable vehicle that is much more reliable. cuhulin
Wait for it......
ROFLMGDAO!!! YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do a LOT of driving, and since I am in a phone based business, the phone rings whenever.
I could handle having a clearly audible Bluetooth radio that mutes itself and puts the call through the car's speakers. Since I often have a good idea where I'm going, but not always exactly, I could use a GOOD built-in GPS (although my Tom Tom is decent, but the GPS navigation I had through the cell phone was better...and at $9.99 a month it damn well BETTER be!)
Touch screen? I worked for a Toyota/Mercury/Lincoln dealer a few years ago and the van they had for errands and delivering customers had some bling touch screen radio and the thing was a PITA!!! My God, how complicated can you possibly make a radio?!?!
Throttle by wire? Why? Throttle by cable was fine, but I guess they can control the engine better if throttle inputs are handled by the ECU. So what? I drive Toyotas. They get ~30MPG no matter what anyway!
However, I do like good sound, and I spend so much time in the car that all my cars have CD/MP3 players and XM, and a couple have some really good amps and bass speakers (NOT Bump Boxes, but good solid bass). I have a home-rigged speakerphone with a head's up display and everything is located where I don't have to take my eyes off the road.
Ed White wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@r27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
What you're talking about here is talking about is on the auto shows fixup shows such as they have on SPEED TV. You're not actually erasing the EPROM and then putting new machine language into it replacing what was originally there. You're changing variables such as valve timing and so on. This difference may only be apparent to people who *have* written computer programs like myself. It can of course damage an vehicle just as removing a rev limiter or boosting the engine with too much nitrous will do. Nothing more.
Tegger wrote in news:Xns9D46DE616F236tegger@208.90.168.18:
Yes, that was partially my point. The other part was that there simply is no way to flash the ROM like some trojan would do to some internet noobs router.
Perhaps, I'll reserve my judgement on that until I see some real conclusions in this Toyota mess. It could easily be minor bugs in the actual ROMS however. Extremely doubtful, but always a possibility.
chuckcar wrote in news:Xns9D474BA4D988chuck@127.0.0.1:
Why do you keep setting a Followup to rec.autos.tech? I only crossposted to three groups, all of which have had extensive discussions regarding this matter, and all which I thought would benefit from a discussion of the article I originally referenced (and which only Ed White seems to have actually read).
You mean that such variables are in volatile memory and thus rewritable?
"Cameo" wrote in news:hoj1ne$53q$ snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal-september.org:
I never said non-volatile, static or ram made from capacitors. I just said RAM.
Tegger wrote in news:Xns9D474ED1BCD25tegger@208.90.168.18:
Because I only read that group.
To further explain, my newservers are touchy about posting to numerous groups without using a follow-up header, so I frequently error on the side of caution. However being only three groups, I will desist if you prefer.
chuckcar wrote in news:Xns9D47A485FCB3Achuck@127.0.0.1:
That's fair. But I read all three.
Mine appears to be touchy as well. Not all my replies always appear in all three groups. I've just asked my admin.
The three groups I crossposted to all have had discussions regarding the throttle issue. I thought I had relevant information to pass on, and also thought the expected subsequent discussion might prove entertaining and enlightening for all, especially if it flushed out some new info that had not been heretofore posted. If crossposting is removed, threads that develop in the various groups become independent, none of them knowing what happened in the other groups.
Having said that, it appears that most of the discussion has ended up being in rec.autos.tech, so maybe I shouldn't have bothered crossposting in the first place...
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