Which of these 4 spots (2 on tire, 2 on wheel) are supposed to be lined up?

Hi Ashton,

I appreciate your help and advice, and, well, I do understand what you're saying (in that wheels change over time) ...

However, sheer logic says that, if the wheel match-mounting mark were really therefore meaningless for replacement tires, then, (most) replacement tires would not have any need for the *legal requirement* that the high spot & heavy spot be marked (since the vast majority of replacement tires do *not* go on brand new unused wheels).

So, that belies logic (although the government isn't known to be logical).

Actually, for all but aluminum rims, the algorithm is explained in the following articles I read before posting to this newsgroup:

  1. Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
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  2. Bridgestone pamphlet on match mounting:
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  3. Bridgestone magazine article on match mounting:
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  4. Yokohama article explaining the "Uniformity" and "Weight" methods of match mounting:
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  5. Yokohama TSB on match mounting:
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  6. Rubber Manufacturers Association tire booklet (See Chapter 2, page 33 "Match Mounting"):
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  7. Tire Rack article on match mounting:
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    My problem is in what the significance of the dimple is in the stock BMW BBS aluminum rims, since all these articles imply there is no match-mounting point in the aluminum wheels (yet, contradictory words are in the articles which state that the marks are mandatory by wheel manufacturers).

I'll call BBS to see what I can find out about that notch in my BBS wheels.

Reply to
blue bmw
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I was thinking the same thing!

The stick of inside weights looks kind of permanent while the rim weight is clearly huge and most would rip it off.

So I was mostly asking what they do with that stick of weights!

Reply to
blue bmw

I've had this bimmer for more than a decade, and, in very many ways, Joe Bro is right. It's a POS when it comes to the plastic cooling expansion tank and radiator neck blowing up; the DISA valve being sucked into the intake manifold destroying your exhaust valves; the stock VANOS seals being made out of nitrile rubber instead of Viton; the $1000 Hella fiber-optic headlights whose PBT plastic headlight adjusters crumble on every bimmer over time due to forseeable heat inside the headlight; the cheapness of BMW positioning the Bosch 5.7 ABS control module right next to the exhaust manifold (to save on wires and tubes) so that it fries on almost every 5-series, 3-series, and 7-series bimmer over time; the cheap recycled rubber gasket around the windshields crumbling to dust in just a few years; the stingy application of adhesive on the door vapor barriers so that water invariably leaks into every single bimmer's back seat over time; the idiotic seat motor wires which cause seat twist eventually in all bimmers; the cheap yet fancy window regulators whose clamps fall off their cables in almost every bimmer over time; (and I could go on).

Yet, while the bimmer *is* a POS with respect to quality, it does handle rather well.

So, like everything else, a bimmer is a trade off between superb handling and safety, and POS component quality.

But, let's get back to the point please.

From the match-mounting articles, after reading the dozen references on match mounting, I *think* this is the algorithm:

  1. If you have steel wheels with match mounting marks, and red dots on the tires, mount the match mounting mark to the red dot.
  2. If you have steel wheels without match mounting marks, and red dots on the tires, mount the valve stem to the red dot.
  3. If you have steel wheels without match mounting dots, and no red dots on the tires, then mount the valve stem to the yellow dot.
  4. However, if you have aluminum wheels, and red dots on the tires, then mount the valve stem to the red dot.
  5. Likewise, if you have aluminum wheels, and no red dots on the tires, then mount the valve stem to the yellow dot.

All this works fine *if* there are no match mounting marks on the aluminum wheels. But *mine* have (what appears to be) match mounting marks.

Unfortunately, NONE of the articles mentions what to do in the case of aluminum rims with an existing match mounting mark.

I have a call in to BBS which hasn't been returned yet: 877.832.8209

Reply to
blue bmw

This is true.

However, I've called Tire Rack, BBS, and even the rubber manufacturers association, and, these "tire professionals" don't even know the answer (at least not yet, offhand).

I sent them all the pictures, by email. So, we may get some progress, but not in time for my appointment today with the Tire Rack "recommended installers" who, supposedly, have met a professional standard for installation.

Unfortunately, it's my humble opinion that no tire installer installs tires properly.

I'm not saying tires are falling off cars left and right, but, for the aficionado, if you don't watch them and tell them what to do, they won't:

a) Mount the tire on the wheel properly b) Torque the lug bolts properly c) Pressurize the tires properly etc.

And these are very basic mistakes that a mere consumer should *not* have to worry about.

Reply to
blue bmw

I agree that nobody pays attention to the dots and match-mounting marks - but I do not agree that this is the *proper* way to install a tire (by ignoring those marks).

The dots are there to allow proper tire installation on the rim.

Both the rim and dots are required by law (according to the references I previously quoted).

All I'm asking is what the proper way is to align those marks.

I do have a call to BBS, and they called me back - so I'm working with them as we speak to determine what that match mounting mark means on my BBS rims.

The guys I spoke to didn't know if BMW does anything different at the factory, as they only handled the USA BBS wheels - so - they forwarded my questions over to Germany.

Still - the answer won't arrive in time for *my* tires to be mounted properly - and that's sad that you can't trust any tire professional to mount a passenger tire properly. :(

Reply to
blue bmw

Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:

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"OE tire suppliers are *required* to mark a tire?s radial runout high point, and OE wheel makers are *required* to mark a wheel?s radial runout low point."

Tire Rack article on match mounting:

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"Original Equipment (OE) tire suppliers are *required* to mark the tire's "high point" while OE wheel manufacturers mark the wheel's "low point."

Reply to
Angel A.

Hi Tegger, That's the whole point!

The tire installer doesn't even START installing tires correctly (unless we tell them how to mount our tires properly!).

The result, from their invariably bad starting point, is that more weight is eventually added than was needed, and that's bad from various points of view, especially when/if one of those weights subsequently falls off.

A) The wheel is *really* out of balance by then B) The environment doesn't need millions of pounds of lead that never was needed in the first place.

So, thanks for stating that the whole point is to figure out the correct *starting point*!

Reply to
blue bmw

If this is true (and it very well may be), then why do my replacement tires come with both the red and yellow dots, and why do the Yokohama and Bridgestone articles and TSBs I provided say to mount the rim with respect to those dots for replacement tires?

Do you see why this is confusing? That's why I'm trying to find the answer.

Reply to
blue bmw

Notice the OE and OEM? This is required ONLY on tires and wheels sold to auto manufacturers to be installed as the vehicles are made.

Look at tires that are not sold as an OEM tire and you usually won't find marks. Especially on house brands and LT tires.

Reply to
Steve W.

The reason is that any company that sells to an auto manufacturer has to mark the tires sold to them as OEM fitment. Say Bridgestone makes 100,000 pieces of a certain tire. The auto maker says "Hey we want 64,000 of those delivered by Friday" By marking ALL the tires they can just grab that amount and ship them. The rest go to wholesale/retail outlets. Those have the marks simply because of economics. It is like any other commodity item, if you sell to a customer that requires a certain coating or material it is easier to make the entire run the same way and sell the "leftovers" elsewhere.

Also be aware that unless the tire you are fitting is the EXACT same tire (make, model, molding, rubber compound, size), the new tire is going to perform differently. You can take 5 different tires of the same size from 5 different brands or even model tire from the same brand and they will measure differently.

Did you know that in reality there is no such thing as a 15/16/17 INCH tire? That in reality they are all produced using metric measurements but still use the inch designation for easier identification?

Reply to
Steve W.

Blue,

Geez, did you read the articles that you cited? " In the end, the markers have little, if any, relevance when replacement tires are installed." And "The only way to accurately match-mount a tire to a wheel is to actually measure tire and wheel runout. The end goal remains the same: to align the tire's high point to the wheel's low point." Forget the dots. Neither article supports their use. If match mounting is important to you you'll need to find a shop that can do it.

Dave M.

Reply to
David L. Martel

blue bmw wrote in news:krvqhq$o67$ snipped-for-privacy@news.albasani.net:

Q: What's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW? A: The porcupine has the pricks on the *outside*.

Reply to
Doug Miller

Okay, I can see where the auto manufacturers "require" their tire and rim manufacturers to provide some balance points. But that's not a "law." That's what I meant to say. But new factory rims and tires and aftermarket tires on old rims are different animals. Wasting a minute of "serious" thought on those dots is a waste of time. To me anyway. I don't mount my own tires or balance them. You're going to get the balancing the shop gives you. If you're concerned about weight or dot cosmetics you can make that known to the shop. Maybe it will make a difference in cosmetics, but in the end what matters is that the wheel is balanced. You can find out if the shop pays attention to the dots. But the guy you talk to might not be doing the balancing. I never stand over a worker's shoulder telling him how to do his job. If he doesn't balance a tire correctly, I bring it back. In nearly every case I don't have to. A few years ago I had new tires put on my car and thought they were balanced right. A couple months later I was in Tennessee where the limit is 75, and it was shaking at 77. Took it back and they rebalanced and it was fine at any speed there after. Yeah, it was irritating, but that's life. Nobody's perfect. I recently bought a 2003 Impala with good rubber, and it was shaking at speed when I got it. Got the wheels balanced at the same shop, and made sure I did a high speed run right after, because I was going on a road trip. Vibrations were gone, and it's been fine since. I never looked at the weights or dots. If somebody wants to talk about them, fine with me. Just trying to save the BMW guy some time. Here's a Hunter 9700 demo. Kinda boring unless you dig it.

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Reply to
Vic Smith

...[big snip]...

...[snip]...

And, the biggest thing (unless you're racing or have some other very unusual issue) is the final thing Bridgestone says in their pamphlet --

All in all, it'll never be anything you'll ever be able to tell whether was or wasn't used in all likelihood.

IOW, "tempest in teapot", basically, for average passenger car and tire and driving.

Reply to
dpb

blue bmw wrote in news:ks12va$udq$ snipped-for-privacy@news.albasani.net:

Tire installers can't rely solely on the paint marks. Sometimes you're mounting used tires, or swapping snows and summer tires for a customer who has only one set of wheels. Dots can disappear after a couple of winters.

In those cases you need to know the basics of mounting and of how to get the tire to spin true on the rim. In such cases, you need to guess at first, then correct as needed until the tire spins true.

More weight does not correct for poor mounting. If vibration doesn't happen immediately, it will occur once the the tread wears unevenly from the poor mounting, no matter how much weight you stuck on there.

Not out-of-balance, but out-of round. Getting it round /before/ you balance is the point. You can stuff the rim full of weights, but you're only (maybe) masking, not curing. See my paragraph above.

If in doubt go to Costco. At least their installers have some official training from the tire companies.

Reply to
Tegger

Theoretically the dots have meaning, but I do agree with two other important points mentioned in this thread.

1) On a used wheel the high spot and low spot probably aren't where they were when the wheel was made, unless you live on a billiards table. So while the dots on the tire may mean something, the marks on the wheel are questionable, and it is not necessarily warranted to criticize a tire guy for giving you your car back with the dots in a different place than the procedure says they should be. Doubly so if the wheels have ever been reconditioned. 2) The best way to achieve a smooth vibration free ride is to patronize a shop that has road force balance equipment and the guy using it knows how to use it properly.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Nate Nagel wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news4.newsguy.com:

The best way to achieve a vibration-free ride is to patronize a shop that knows how to mount a tire that spins true BEFORE anythng else is done.

Road-force equipment is nice to have, but is far from essential.

Reply to
Tegger

I'd agree with that too. And the tire guy should be checking that the rim spins true without hops or lateral runout before even thinking about mounting the tire, especially if the customer complains about a vibration with the old tires. Unfortunately, as I have found, you can't trust that that will happen, you have to either know a good guy or get a recommendation for one.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Nate Nagel wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news1.newsguy.com:

Costco. Oddly enough.

Reply to
Tegger

mounting his tires at home is an excellent idea. Most shops don't respond well to being instructed as to how to perform their tasks, regardless of who is right.

GW

Reply to
Geoff Welsh

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