Yaris, Scion xD, Honda Fit - no water temp gauge

so by looking at the "temperature gauge", you can assess the vehicle's performance and reliability and thus offer a sales endorsement? dude, you're priceless! keep it rolling - this is great! homer simpson builds the canyonero!

Reply to
jim beam
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Actually, yes you can. e.g. if the temp. creeps up at a stoplight in warm weather, even if it never overheats, it's a fair bet that there's a failure in the cooling fan controls or else the cooling system is partially plugged with rust, scale, or overenthusiastic application of "stop leak" products.

You can't get that kind of info from an idiot light.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

how far do you want to take this? you can go hog wild and measure the working temperature of each piston, each bearing and each exhaust valve if you really want, and you can justify it in terms of "predicting more serious problems". but the reality is, on a properly maintained system, this is a zero issue. and it's only vaguely useful on improperly maintained ones - just like you describe - because by then, it's usually too late.

it's totally not unreasonable for a manufacturer to assume half-way competent standards of maintenance. if those standards are not kept, and you describe them perfectly, then i think a manufacturer is perfectly entitled to abandon the vehicle [and its instrumentation] to its fate.

Reply to
jim beam

On 4/25/2008 2:12 PM Steve spake these words of knowledge:

Steve,

the people responding to you are not amenable to logic. Just so you know, there are people who understand that in this case, more information is either useful or, if discarded/ignored, harmless.

RFT!!! Dave Kelsen

Reply to
Dave Kelsen

On 4/25/2008 8:45 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:

This may be the most ironic statement I have ever read.

RFT!!! Dave Kelsen

Reply to
Dave Kelsen

It's not harmless at all--as described earlier in this thread, with fluctuating gauges simply reflecting normal operation. But, the ignorant people seeing the fluctuation immediately assumed "something's wrong," and took the car in for service.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

That's what Steve and his narrow-minded people want. They don't understand the REAL world in which the typical car buyer lives.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

That's right. In another few years, they'll eliminate ALL the instrumentation. No more speedometers, since automated governors linked by radio to the electronic highway system will make it impossible to speed. No more temperature gauges, voltmeters, or oil pressure gauges.

In the new era, there will just be one light on the dashboard, that says "REPLACE CAR" and when it comes on, the GPS system will print directions to the nearest GM dealer that you can give to the taxi cab driver that Onstar will dispatch.

Oh, actually, I take that back. They'll still be selling automatics with a tachometer, because everybody knows tachometers are cool.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

doesn't understand the world in which anyone lives.

once the machine is tested and out the door, the detailed instrumentation is done. i have absolutely no desire to know my exhaust valve temperatures because i know that they can operate for over 1000 hours, at the highest temperature the engine can produce, with 99.9999% probability that they will remain within spec. any "engineer" or "enthusiast" that /thinks/ they need to monitor this situation beyond that is either didn't do their homework, is not confident of their own abilities or /knows/ they didn't do something right in testing or production.

Reply to
jim beam

one for you dave:

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Reply to
jim beam

you've never worked in customer support then...

Reply to
jim beam

but the reality is, on a properly maintained system,

I thought he was talking about properly maintaining the cooling fans. Some people drive cars that have more than a 1000 hours on them.

-jim

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Reply to
jim

But that is precisely how most non-enthusiast-owned vehicles are maintained. People do the bare minimum to keep the vehicle running, and generally plan on trading it in at 5 years old or less, and/or driving it until the wheels fall off at 7-8 years old. Do you want to buy a used car from one of these people?

Yes, it is, because those do not reflect reality.

Sure, but that will drastically affect resale value of used cars, when buyers don't want to touch them and/or consider them disposable after a couple years and price them accordingly.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

I guess I'm not typical then, as since I purchased my old F-150 I've added a REAL oil pressure gauge (thanks Ford!) a dash cluster with tach, a transmission temp. gauge, and a vacuum gauge. (the last was somewhat extraneous, but I had a hole to fill.)

Personally I consider at least a water temp. gauge and oil pressure gauge a must; oil temp., trans temp (if automatic) tach and vacuum are nice options.

The oil pressure gauge has given me great piece of mind with the Ford, as it consistently makes a noise that sounds precisely like worn rod bearings. However, the oil pressure is rock solid stable, even when lugging the engine (and that happens a lot, being the 4.9 I-6) therefore I can only assume that it is either piston slap, an exhaust leak, or something equally benign. You simply can't get that kind of confirmation/denial of a theory as to "what's wrong" from an idiot light. A gauge is a hell of a lot cheaper than an exploratory teardown (which would probably turn into a rebuild, "while you're in there.")

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

er, if you think detroit has an interest in /any/ of their vehicles running beyond that time, you're too innocent for this game.

see above.

says who? what was the history of your "old f150" when you bought it? did it have sludge in the radiator? how did you test for that? did you check the oil in the diff to see it was the correct grade? how worn were the main bearings? what does an oil leak mean?

bottom line - unless something is, er, "obvious", all you have to go on is experience and subjective judgment. beyond that, you're just as much in the dark as the next guy. the only factors on which you can really rely are mileage [if genuine], documented history [if genuine] and physical appearance. and even then, that's b.s. my crx has peeling paint and primer on one door. it looks real ghetto. but the motor purrs like a kitten and it goes like a freakin' rocket [thanks to a zc cam]. but you'd never know a damned thing from looking at it, or even from opening the hood. peeling paint on the rocker cover and everything.

Reply to
jim beam

So? The auto industry doesn't give a crap about producing decent products aimed at knowledgeable consumers who intend to keep them for several decades. This is not news to me. This is also why for years all of my primary cars have been German (save for one Dodge Dart.) When I find that design philosophy has swung back to treating a new vehicle purchase as the investment that something that expensive ought to be, I might consider a) buying an actual new car and b) buying an American or Japanese car. Until that time, they will get none of my money.

One owner, all paperwork.

I looked.

no, as it'd never been changed.

I couldn't tell, because it had the factory "idiot gauge" in the dash when I test drove it.

But if I have gauges, I'm much less in the dark. And if the truck had had gauges I would have been less likely to negotiate downward as hard.

Good for you. You realize that if you went to sell it, it'd be completely worthless. (I'm not saying that it really *is,* but neither can you say with certainty that it *isn't* and that at hot idle the oil pressure is 0.1 PSI above the threshold that triggers the idiot light.) Even you don't know the actual condition of some of the mechanical stuff without gauges.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

you drained it and used an endoscope??? i don't believe you.

dude, unless they're worn out and oil pressure drops too low, you still have no idea. and if just one is worn, you definitely won't know unless it's making noise. especially not if it's spun and the oil way is blocking what would otherwise be excessive leakage. [you'll find out 50 miles down the road though!]

you could have a flight deck like a 747. but unless you're testing a prototype, there's no point as it will operate within spec for the life of the vehicle.

that's precisely my point!!! you can't really tell with /anything/ you buy unless you have an extremely good working experience of stripped and failed motors so you can see telltales. can you tell what's acceptable wear on a cam just by looking at it? what signs flag problems for you?

that's my point! i don't /need/ to know if it's working within spec and i know it's been well maintained. if you don't know history and you don't know mileage, i defy you to have the slightest clue about condition unless you know /exactly/ what you're looking for. even mileage isn't worth that much - 300k miles well maintained can easily be better than 75k of neglect.

Reply to
jim beam

You "guess" you're not typical?

Have you ever spent ANY time in a car dealership, even just watching what goes on?

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

And yet, you want those same car owners who DON'T do halfway competent maintenance to have twizzler and fidget gauges all over the dashboard, and you state for the record that of COURSE they'll know what those gauges do and mean and will pay attention to them??

Face it: you are pwned.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

You think GERMAN cars are built with any sense of decently logical engineering, with the intention of lasting several decades???

I wouldn't buy a German car with YOUR money. (Been there, done that.)

And yes, I "get" German cars. German cars are the expensive, pouty, and high-maintenance mistresses of the road. Damn, they are a fine, fine ride...

....but then the maintenance and pouting kicks in.

At some point, without unlimited funds, you are at a decision point: continue the high-priced, high-maintenance fun, or go back home and enjoy your reliable Lexus wife of a car, patiently sitting there waiting for you to get over the midlife crisis.

Oh sure, she's not as sexy as the German car, and she doesn't handle at the edge like the German car. She's also not as fickle and high maintenance and pouty, and she agrees with you much more of the time. She's always there and never complains, and you come to realize there's more to life than a high-maintenance relationship with a pouty, high-maintenance woman--no matter how sexy she is or how fun the nights out with her can be. Because when she lets you down and demands more of you than you have to give, and treats you like dirt, you're standing there all alone outside the club, looking and feeling like an idiot.

Your Lexus wife would never, ever do that to you.

And the occasional fun night out isn't worth what you end up paying for it, both financially and in time wasted while you wait for the German car mistress to be in the mood to play.

Do this: start paying attention to cars with tail light and headlight problems. What brands of cars are you seeing? That's right--VW, M-B, and BMW. And pay attention to how old, or rather how new, those problem cars are.

The reality of electrical issues with German cars make Lucas electrics look reliable.

Now *try* to find a Honda or Toyota, either low brand or high brand, no matter how old, with non-working tail lights. Good luck.

It's a small thing, but it represents the reality of the situation. You want to buy a German car? Just buy a GM car. At least the money you're throwing away stays more inside the country--and you get just as reliable a car.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

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