Yaris, Scion xD, Honda Fit - no water temp gauge

Yes your right. I thought you were making a little sense - but it now seems it's worse than I thought.

Well that makes it crystal clear you are the one that doesn't comprehend.

That gauge is designed to be extremely sensitive in the range of 212-240.

It looks to me like you are looking at good design and you call that doctoring. The gauge moves quickly through the range of 150°-185°F. T hat movement in that range tells the driver that heat should now be available . Also, the gauge is very responsive in the range where the driver needs to

be concerned about overheating. In the Normal operating range the gauge i s nice and steady. I don't see how this can be interpreted as a problem. They have done some good engineering to address many of your complaints.

So you advocate eliminating gas gauges now?

That's right. That attitude is OK for someone driving a high mileage beater - when it craps out you just walk away from it. But when a car company takes that same attitude about a fairly low mileage new car - wel l let's just say it isn't surprising when that company finds itself in financial trouble.

Car companies don't have the disdain for customers that you do. Engineering is not just about making something work. It needs to work for

the people who use it. Besides you are arguing out of both sides of your ass it's either that drivers don't pay attention to the gauge or they rea d too much into it.

A good car company thinks encouraging the customer to come in for routine maintenance is a good thing. Faced with an unwarranted complaint about the engine lubrication the dealership isn't going to do anything bu t change their oil, filter and other ordinary maintenance (and bill the customer for it). There isn't going to be any warranty cost unless the dealership has a real indication that something is actually wrong.

No its not a waste of time. Pulling the wool over customers eyes may get you through the warranty period without a claim. But that isn't the way t o build reliability into your product or generate long term customer confidence.

You are not very bright if you think a car dealership strips an engine down every time a customer complains about something or the other. You ar e completely brain dead if think that is what I am asking for.

As you pointed out the oil pressure will drop over the life of the engine. Most people buy a car with the expectation that the the life of the car means something a little longer than the warranty period. Even if

they sell it at that point they still expect it be worth something and no t used up.

The dealership is only adversely affected by what the gauge tells the customer if the car subsequently has an engine failure due to poor lubrication. Otherwise for a dealer that is selling cars and he has confidence in their reliability the complaint will be viewed as an opportunity to sell the customer more maintenance or even another car. Th e most a dealer will ever do for a customer like you describe is to offer t o make a note in the customers service record so that if anything should happen the manufacturer will be held accountable.

The car manufacturers who sell cars that don't have gauges would like yo u to believe gauges were eliminated because it was costing them something due to customer imagined problems. It wasn't. It only actually cost them when there was a real actual problem. I do accept that removing the gauge

in some cases lowered warranty costs - that is it allowed the manufacture r to avoid the problem while the warranty was in affect. But in the long ru n the company would be far better off by increasing the reliability instead

of focusing on hiding unreliability.

-jim

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Reply to
jim
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If you value your labor at zero.

Reply to
Brent P

So what? Why should everything be dumbed down for her sake? All this dumbing down does is build better idiots. So she doesn't know what they mean, tough shit for her.

The catch all 'check engine light' is the stupidest thing ever. Back when OBD2 was being debated the auto manufacturers actually wanted something where the nature of the issue could be indicated to the driver. The government said 'NO', that they wanted to panic people into bringing their cars in.

What happens is people see the 'check engine light' and ignore it thinking its' a minor problem because they've seen the damn thing light up for a loose gas cap or tank of bad gas.

If there was nice LCD display that displayed the information it would be better than the gauges. But if it's all going to go to lighting up a single lamp if any one thing is out of range, then it isn't.

Reply to
Brent P

er, actually, the labor to rebuild a motor is /way/ more than to replace.

Reply to
jim beam

You plainly don't understand marketing and sales.

You're asking the wrong question. The CORRECT question to ask is this: why should every car be built with the 747 cockpit? Let the THREE PEOPLE in the world who care about that, add whatever they want.

In the meantime, the REAL WORLD marketing will keep the cost of the vehicle down by NOT adding the 747 dashboard that requires flight school and years of training to use.

It's easier to put that years of training into a proper computer program which will decide, properly, when something needs tended to. Design that one time, spend the money one time, then the program can run at no extra cost on every car that comes off the line.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

EXCELLENT way of putting it.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

Are you honestly telling me that the car buying public operates their cars on this basis?

Fact: they don't.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

I don't believe that that is actually done. Do you have any evidence of any software like you describe?

My belief is that most cars are essentially toaster ovens on wheels, made to be used for a couple years, discarded, and then replaced with a new one. At least that's how the manufacturers would like their customers to think of them. That's why I don't buy cars that show evidence of this design philosophy if I have any choice in the matter.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

I'd never allow anyone to borrow one of my vehicles that didn't know enough to at least watch the gauges at that superficial a level.

nate

Reply to
N8N

YOU trust YOUR eyes. Ain't that nice.

You are also, by definition, trusting not only the gauges but the sensors. There are plenty of failure points here.

Back to the point: YOU trust YOUR eyes more than you trust the programmers to write a program to watch all the sensors and to have a map of various parameters that will tell when the SYSTEM is out of normal range. That's what you're saying?

That's a choice, and as jim says you ENJOY doing all this stuff--therefore much of your choice is, indeed, based on recreation.

You seem not to want to acknowledge that the car buying public doesn't get its rocks off by watching a 747 dash full of gauges like you do. They don't want to watch, they don't care to know. YOU are definitely within the minority. And the economics of the situation have spoken: if YOU want those gauges, then YOU add them. It would be silly to force a 747 dash full of gauges on the buying public, virtually all of whom would be turned off by them and would refuse to pay for them.

You keep harping on detail items, while completely ignoring the reality of the outside world. Yes, I said outside world. There's a huge world outside your lab, Dr. Brown, full of people doing things that have nothing to do with knowing how an ICE works or what rules of thumb one should use for an oil gauge or a water temp gauge or a cylinder head temp gauge (that would be one per piston, right?). They drive cars EVERY DAY, they do so successfully, and they have the expectation that they DO NOT NEED to be YOU, Dr. Brown, just in order to drive a car.

The car manufacturers are catering to those people, because those people represent 99.99% of the market. It makes ZERO sense for Ford to give a shit that you want the 747 dashboard full of gauges.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

it's called obdII. it's on all modern cars.

Reply to
jim beam

But do you have any evidence that, say, oil pressure is monitored by anything other than a simple 5 or 7 PSI pressure switch?

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Ever hooked up a ScanGauge?

Ever driven a Prius? Ever looked into the technology of a Prius? That the Prius drives just like any other car is testimony to the abilities of the software engineers at Toyota.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

That's correct. And those of us who know better, buy quality cars that can easily outlast the manufacturer's ultimate wishes. Want a 94 Lexus ES with 174K on the clock? No 747 dashboard full of gauges, but runs as smooth as the day it was born.

So what cars do you buy?

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

Great, but the manufacturers and car dealers are happy to sell to those people.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

Yes, that's true. If you don't maintain your car properly, you have to buy a new one long before you would if you were more careful. Poor maintenance _increases_ auto sales.

If you don't do regular maintenance, any car is a complete waste of money, because it won't be worth much for long.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

This is true.

This is not true. Just because it CAN do a better job doesn't mean anyone is bothering to make it do so.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

That's not my fault.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

Permit me to summarize this thread.

Mr. Nagel points out that having realtime information from gauges permits one to predict possible impending failures.

Mr. Beam points out that most drivers are drooling mouthbreathers who should never be allowed behind the wheel of a car.

Both of these statements are true. However, the second statement does not invalidate the first one.

Most drivers don't watch the gauges, it's true. But most drivers don't stop at stop signs or signal turns either. Does that mean we should take all the signs down and stop requiring cars to have turn signals? I do not believe so.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

Um, the question is having gauges to prevent needing either vs. driving it into the ground and replacing.

Reply to
Brent P

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