Clackety valves

What did the shop due to remove lucas?

Reply to
Airport Shuttle
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[condescending post snipped]

Ok, right in front of me:

"Use API grade SJ ( whatever that is ), "energy-conserving" ( whatever that is ) or ILSAC multigrade engine oil.

And then the viscosity recommendations, which are pretty much the standard

5W-30 for winter and 10W-30 for summer ( though a lot of people say 10W-40 is best for summer ).

So where does all that leave me as a simple minded consumer being talked down to by "professionals"?

Does it even include things like synth blends or sythetic oil?

I have no idea, because the techie jargon in the manual is way over my poor little stupid female consumer head.

Reply to
Jane_Galt

Yeah, well wouldnt that be a hoot, finding a mechanic who's honest, knows everything about my car and doesnt charge $200 an hour.

Except for the last part, that pretty much just leaves me with dealerships, huh? And then I gotta get a guy to take it in for me, so they dont get the "see a woman coming" bug.

Yeah, but he doesnt sell it.

Well that leaves me out in the cold again.

I just dont have time to drive 15-20 miles to a dealership and wait 4-8 hours while they work on my car.

Reply to
Jane_Galt

New Hampshire

In theory it should be ok, but it would make me nervous. I'd rather burn in up in lawnmowers and such before I put it in the car. But I think the stuff is sold for any type of machine use. IE: cars, as well as boats, and small engines. So unless it was real old and starting to varnish, I would think it would be ok. Why not burn it in the mower instead?

Reply to
nm5k

I would use exactly what it calls for.. You can use 5W-30 year round and it wouldn't hurt it. But if it's calling for 10W-30 in the summer I'd do it.. My 05 calls for 5W-30 year round. Mainly for energy saving purposes. Mostly when cold is when it makes the difference. I'd ignore what a "lot of people" say.. No need for 40 weight these days. Thicker when hot often does not mean better. With the modern oils, the thinner weights protect just fine, flow better when cold, and save energy. Mine says, 5W-30 right on the filler cap, "energy saving" and I wouldn't put anything else in it. Like Ray O says, they have researched all this mess to death. Do what Toyota says, and ignore everything else. Being as fall is already kicking in where you are, I'd be running the 5W-30 if it were mine.. But if you just put 10W-30 in it, might as well use it, and change to 5W-30 next time. "I assume it will be winter" if you drive that much. I also would not exceed 5000 miles for oil and filter changes, even if your manual says 7500.. That's the only thing I might not follow.. Your engine sounds like it needs a few frequent changes to clean it out a bit. So I wouldn't go past 5000 in your case.

Reply to
nm5k

---MIKE---

My dad was a big believer in Stabil, and it never caused any problems in lawnmowers and snowblowers. It should be OK to use in the car as long as you top off the car's tank to dilute the Stabil.

Reply to
Ray O

We WISH fall was kickin in. It was 50-88 today here.

Maybe by then it will cool off. We're in El Nino.

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We always do 3000 anyway.

Reply to
Jane_Galt

Sorry, it is very frustrating to try to give good, professional, well-thought out advice based on years of studying and experience and then have someone without a technical background or automotive experience think they know more, and cause a problem.

I really try to give the best advice I can, and I don't steer people wrong very often. I guess that comes from my days calliing on dealerships and giving them technical advice, which if wrong, could cause millions of dollars in damage from 15 dealers working on thousands of cars, or worse, injuries or death.

You mentioned that one should question authority, and while I agree, I also think it is not very wise to automatically take a contrarian stand and do the opposite when the advice from the authority is not what one wants to hear without a factual basis for that stand.

Your car will last longer and perform better if you follow my advice. ;-)

Legitimate motor oil will have a label that shows the American Petroleum Institute (API) seal and will show the API 2-letter grade. The seal is a circle with the viscosity in the middle and the grade in the ring around the circle. The good oil on the shelves now will say that it meets API grade SL/CF, and if you read the print in the text on the lable, it will say that it meets API SJ and SL.

The "S" in the grade means that the oil is intended for gasoline engines, and the "C" means that the oil is good for diesel engines as well.

API SJ or SL oil has all the additives the engine needs and the additives have been tested to determine that they will not harm the engine or the emissions system. Aftermarket additives are often not API certified because the additive maker either didn't want to incur the expense of testing or licensing or because the additive may harm the engine or emissions system.

A lot of people have no technical basis for the advice they give, or they have not kept up with the state of automotive technology. It used to be necessary to use thicker oil in the summer and thinner oil in the winter, but advances in engine metalurgy, temperature control, and oil chemistry have made old practices invalid. In my first car, I had to change the thermostat in the spring and fall but nobody does that any more. As I keep saying, stick to the recommendations in the owner's manual; your car and your wallet will be happier.

I had always thought that the owner's manual was pretty simple, to the point of being overly simple, but I admit that my point of view comes from starting to read manuals at about 10 years old hoping to be able to be able to some day drive the car.

I try not to talk down to people who ask questions but I get frustrated with people who don't know the answer but try to talk like they are experts or come to illogical conclusions despite being given good advice. Some people are very emotional about their cars, and that is fine when it comes to style, appearance, and the ownership experience, but the mechanics, electronics, chemistry, and physics of a car don't care about emotions and so it takes a Spok-like logical approach to successfully and effectively repair and maintain it.

In my 40 years experience shopping at auto parts stores, most people who work in parts stores are auto enthusiasts who are knowledgeable about the availablity of parts in their store but lack the skill, knowledge, or education to properly diagnose and repair cars past a simple oil change or tune-up. If they had that skill, knowledge, and education, they would take the higher-paying job working on cars than the lower paying job working the parts counter. They are well-meaning but IMO, their technical advice is suspect.

Another thing to note that the technical qualifications to get a job working at an oil change chain, tire shop, or muffler shop is a lot lower than the qualifications needed to work in a dealer service department. Dealer service departments have access to factory technical specialists and get continual technical updates from the factory. All that training, equipment, and tools cost money, so they charge more. Independent shops are hit or miss, with good ones being very good and bad ones being very bad. I've found that the labor rate at a good independent is pretty close to the labor rate at a dealership because they have invested in the necessary training and equipment.

As long as the synthetic blends or synthetic oil meets the API grades and viscosity recommended by the automaker, it is safe to use. BTW, people sometimes refer to conventional oil as "dino" oil because it comes from dinosaurs but synthetic oil usually comes from the same crude oil source but is made differently. Synthetic oil theoretically performs better in extreme conditions like sub-zero or over 100 degree air temperatures, prolonged continuous operation at high speeds like draining a full gas tank while running at 100 MPH without stopping, or being late on a scheduled oil change. If you don't do any of the above, conventional oil is fine and costs less.

Synthetic or synthetic blend oils will not stop leaks or stop oil burning so if your engine is leaking or burning oil, conventional oil is a more cost-effective way to go.

Reply to
Ray O

I THOUGHT that I had a good mechanic, so your advices were conflicting. Not knowing you personally ( this IS usenet, after all ) I took his advice.

:)

K. What the heck is "energy conserving" oil that they speak of in the manual?

Ah so....

Thanks Ray.

Ahah! LOL

Thanks. I'm gonna print your post and slap the mechanic over the head with it. LOL

Reply to
Jane_Galt

Oil that saves fuel by decreasing friction.

Reply to
dr_jeff

What kind of oil would that be? Is it cost effective or a feel-good placebo?

For example, if it costs twice as much and increases efficiency by 0.2 MPG.

Reply to
Jane_Galt

Most oils are energy conserving, IIRC. I don't know how much fuel is saved.

Jeff

Reply to
dr_jeff

Ask for the person who is giving you advice for his or her credentials, certifications, and experience.

I've been working on engines for around 40 years. Although I no longer work for Toyota, I did so for 15 years doing everything from printing Monroney Labels (window stickers) to District Service Manager and District Manager. In the past, I was an associate member of the Society of Automotive Engineers, was a Certified Master Technician with all 8 automotive certifications by the National Institute of Automotive Service Excellence (now shortened to "ASE"), and was a Toyota Master Technician. You can also ask the regulars in this ng if the advice I post is usually good or usually worthless, and if I give bad advice, how often. I admit I'm a little rusty since I no longer spend 4 days a week in dealership service departments, but I haven't forgotten everything either.

Ask your mechanic how many ASE certifications he has or has had.

Since it is a small world, it turns out that I used to call on the dealer in hachiroku's home town and the dealer where he used to work, in addition to about 80 other dealerships.

Reply to
Ray O

Supposedly they have higher levels of molybdenum which makes the oil more "slippery". But most also are pretty thin weight when cold.. IE: the energy conserving oil I use is 5w-30. So it flows pretty easy when cold, and naturally less drag. I think the molybdenum helps when the oil is at normal operating temp. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to call it energy conserving just by using a light "5" weight when cold, alone. Or to put it another way, I assume there are other 5w-30 oils that are not energy conserving.

Reply to
nm5k

Whatever happened to the graphite oils I saw years ago?

Reply to
Jane_Galt

What percentage less friction is there, than with regular oil?

What MPG improvement percentage does it translate to?

Reply to
Jane_Galt

Supposedly they have higher levels of molybdenum which makes the oil more "slippery". But most also are pretty thin weight when cold.. IE: the energy conserving oil I use is 5w-30. So it flows pretty easy when cold, and naturally less drag. I think the molybdenum helps when the oil is at normal operating temp. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to call it energy conserving just by using a light "5" weight when cold, alone. Or to put it another way, I assume there are other 5w-30 oils that are not energy conserving.

I do not think you are correct. Any 5w30 would be "energy saving" as compared to 10w30. There is also a weight of 0w30 that is energy saving to a greater degree than 5w30.

Energy Saving has more to do with the light weight than the ingredients. Having said that, the ingredients are what make the oil light weight, or at least useful at light weights.

In a multi-grade oil, there are two numbers. The first defines the cold weather/condition characteristics of the oil and the second defines the warm conditions that the oil will protect to. A low first number indicats that the oil will flow well when the conditions are cold. In theory, own would want a 0w or 5w in cold climates in winter so that the oil will begin flowing to critical parts as early as possible after engine start. The same theory says that a person living in the desert southwest might want a high second number for summer use to ensure that the oil did not suffer from viscosity breakdown as the summer temps rise.

Thinner oil takes less effort to be pumped to the places where it is sent to, therefore it is "energy saving" when compared to thicker oils. The automakers are burdened with getting large numbers of cars and trucks to use less and less fuel, so making th eoil lighter is one way to accomplish this goal. If a million cars use 100 fewer gallons of gas, then the automakers have made headway in reducing the fuel demand. If you use the light oil or the next grade heavier, you're not going to see much difference in fuel demand -- your share of the 100 gallons saved by 1 million cars is a very small number.

I once put 20w50 into an older motor, and even in the summer months it took considerable time to get to the top of the engine and into the lifters so that the valves didn't clack insanely. Clearly 20w50 is far to heavy for the vast majority of engines. It is slow to make its way to critical places, and is so thick that it would cause a noticable impact to fuel demand. 5w30 in the same motor would give better fuel economy and pump into the critial places faster, but it would also likely seep out of the seals and gaskets much easier than the 20w50. Obviously there is a middle ground and some trade offs that come with the selection of oil.

As a general rule of thumb, I'd suggest that using the specified oil is the best thing to do. Having said that, I might select a 0w or 5w for cold climate use during winter, and bump to a -40 for hot climates during summer. Where I live, I can use 10w30 for year around protection in my older car, so I don't have to use winter oil or summer oil. I've got a '97 and an '00 that I put 5w30 into, and a '94 that I use 10w30.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

They proved to be a mistake. IIRC, the graphite didn't really reduce friction and the graphite built up in places you'd rather not have, like in the oil passages. Fram also had a filter with graphite in it that got into the oil. I don't think they make it any more, for the same reason.

Jeff

Reply to
dr_jeff

Only when cold. When hot, it should be the same assuming no other properties added.

Well sure.. But the new cars warm up very quickly. They don't spend too much time cold. I find it hard to believe the rating "energy saving" only applies when the oil is cold. If that were the case, it wouldn't save too much energy. So they add the extra molybdenum to also save energy when hot. The energy saving oils really are supposed to be more "slippery" so to speak. In fact, many say not to use them in vehicles which use wet clutches.. Like say the usual motor cycle. They can cause clutch slippage and damage from what I hear. I recall using regular Exxon 5w-30 dino oil when I first broke in the engine in my old Ford truck. "300 six". I do not recall that oil being rated as "energy saving" even though it was the same weight as say the syntec blend I use in my car which is rated as energy saving. In fact, of all the oils I've used through the years, that syntec blend is the first I've used that had that rating I'm fairly sure. I imagine more and more of the dino oils are rated energy saving though, being as many or most of the new cars specify that rating.

In doing some web checking, I can see that not all oils rated 5w-30, or even thinner are rated energy conserving.. They do state that only 20 and 30 weight oils can be rated as "energy saving". 40 won't qualify. One example for high mileage Castrol.. They say this on their web site..

Question.. will there be a EPA starburst on GTX high mileage oils 5w20,5w-30, 10w-30?

No. We have chosen to emphasize engine protection for high mileage engines versus fuel economy. Research proved that High Mileage consumers are more likely to be concerned with improved engine protection and performance. They are less likely to purchase a High Mileage product because of fuel economy benefits.

As long as the manufacturer's recommendations for API service and viscosity requirements are met, it is okay to use GTX High Mileage. However, GTX High Mileage is not rated Energy Conservation in any grade. Be sure to consult the vehicle's owner's manual for appropriate API service category and viscosity grade requirements.

So just that alone states that not all of the thinner weighted oils qualify for the starburst..

So that pretty much shoots down the theory that all of the lighter weight oils qualify as energy saving.

Reply to
nm5k

I'm not sure..

I've read between 2 and up to 10 percent depending on the driving speed, etc.. I think the 10 percent was at highway speeds.. But I'd have to look into that more to be sure. I may be off on that... They say the difference between a lighter weight oil vs a heavier weight oil will be around 5 percent just from the weight difference alone. It's not a huge difference, but with all of the energy saving techniques used, such as low rolling resistance tires, starburst rated oil, etc, etc, it adds up to a noticeable improvement in efficiency. It's the combination of all the techniques that makes the noticeable difference. That's how the car makers are squeaking through the tougher CAFE requirements.

Reply to
nm5k

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