European Drivers Think Hybrids Are a Good Idea

Your Subject line reminds me of headlines in newspapers that draw a conclusion from spurious data in the article. Just because people in a survey say they offered "driving pleasure" doesn't mean they think they're a good idea, since they're not purchasing the vehicle, but only test driving it.

The REAL conclusion should be based on the sales data of such autos.

We just test drove two toyota Hybrids and found that they offered nothing except additional cost and insignificant gas savings except under certain exacting conditions. The additional $5K cost would not have been saved over several years of fill-ups based on our driving practices.

I ended up purchasing a 4Runner V6 Limited and find it much more comfortable than the hybrids we drove.

For certain buyers of certain products, the purchase is not based on anything logical. It's all emotion. Sounds like that's what the survey was designed to measure (or guess at). In sales training, it's called "Sell the sizzle, not the steak".

I suppose you are right. However, I know two people who own hybrids - one is a confirmed Toyota lover, and the other is a confirmed domestic lover - both love their Priuses (what is the proper plural for Prius?). My SO has driven one and she wishes she had bought one instead of the RAV4 she did buy. Maybe hybrids are not all they are cracked up to be, but does it matter? Prius sales are one of the main reasons Toyota sales were up so much in the US this past March. Clearly people want to believe hybrids offer an answer to try to have a decent size vehicle and good gas mileage.

Ed

Even if the survey agreed with the market, i.e., 79% (or whatever) like them and 79% actually buy them, it still would be meaningless for the US market. European - mostly short drives over very congested roads (including the 'freeways) by people who are accustomed to what we would call 'downsized' products and high cost fuel.

The hybrids are, and will remain, a very small niche market in the US until they match in size and performance at least the midsized cars, SUVs, etc. That won't happen. The only way they will become a significant market share is for gas to get up to very, very high price.

Harry K

Toyota sold more Hybrid Cars (Prius + Camry +Lexus Hybrid) in the first 3 months of 2007 than Ford sold Fusions. In fact Toyota sold as many Priuses as Ford sold Fusions - and Ford claims Fusions are selling really well. So it seems to me Hybrids are already a significant market force. In the first 3 months of 2007, 1,861,459 cars (cars only, light trucks are not included) were sold in the US. Approximately 58,932 of these were hybrid cars (again, light trucks are not included). Therefore hybrids represented around 3% of the car market. However, the share of the car market is rapidly increasing and all of the increase is coming from Japanese cars. Ford or GM would kill to gain 1% of market share. Toyota is getting it and a lot of it comes from selling hybrids. The 39,682 Priuses Toyota sold so far in

2007 represent 2% of the US car market. Don't you think Ford wishes they had those sales?

I agree that for many people hybrids offer no real advantage and in fact may actually be more expensive to own and maintain. However, this is not stopping people from buying them. The same sort of herd mentality that got people buying Japanese cars in the first place is now leading people to buy hybrids. So, once again, domestic manufacturers aren't getting it. No matter how good a product you build, if it isn't what people want, you won't sell it. Building the best SUV in 2010 might be a recipe for bankruptcy.

Ed

The Civic Hybrid decreases the amount of fuel used per 1000 mi from about 30 gallons (30/40 mpg EPA --33 mpg average in regular Civic) to about 20 gallons (49/51 mpg), saving 10 gallons of gas per 1000 mi driving.

If you increased the efficiency of a truck by the same amount so that a truck that gets 16.5 mpg now gets 25 mpg, you would save twice the fuel, or

20 gallons per 1000 mi driven. Of course, you also need a bigger hybrid system.

The point is that hybrids, diesels and other energy-saving technology has more potential to save fuel in big vehicles rather than small vehicles. That might be where hybrids do the most good as far as saving energy.

Jeff

Precisely, the only true test of what buyers prefer to buy are the sales figures. You car bet the average buyer would believe the FWD V6 Lexus is more of a "driving pleasure" than a similar Camry. The same would be true of a V6 Camry over a 4cy Camry. The Camry buyers buy more than twice as many

4cy than V6 Camrys.

Price is always the determining factor in a buyer decision. Ask any salesman and he will tell you the most often asked question before a buyers signs on the bottom line is, 'How much is my monthly payment?' ;)

mike

Ford and GM both have sold hybrids: The Ford Escape and the Silverdo both have Hyrbid options. The Silverado will save about 2 mpg city on the and 1 mpg highway (2x4 only). That an increase of about 10%, meaning a savings of

1850 gallons of gasoline over 300,000 mi of driving.

The Ford Escape and Honda Civic will save about 3000 gallons of gasoline over the 300,000 mi life of the vehicles.

What herd mentality? The original Hondas and Toyotas were really cheap vehicles and not that great (like the old Hyundais). They didn't sell well at first. However, Honda and Toyota and Datsun (now Nissan) improved their vehicles while the US makers offered the same old quality.

Actually, I think the answer is that you need to build an entire line of vehicles, from cheap vehicles (the Korean-made Chevy Aveo) to big cars and trucks like the Silverado) or the Focus to Expedition. They all need to be relatively good quality (considering the competition at the same price).

Jeff

Apparently, based on your first sentence, the driving pleasure of a

4-cylinder Camry is more than a 6-cylinder Camry. I guess the price at dealer and the gas pump matter.

Unfortunately, the question should be, "what is the price of the car?" The monthly payment doesn't include trade-in and deposit. It does include interest.

Jeff

Actually Ford is ahead of the curve in what American buyers want, expanding where the largest increase in sales are currently headed, crossovers, not hybrids per se.

Toyota has a tendency to mix 'Toyota Motors' and the 'Toyota' brand in their advertising and sales figures releases. IE they say Toyota is America number one car brand, which is true but GM sells more cars, they just have different brand names on the grill.

If you look at sales tends over the past ten years Toyota brand 'growth' has been in trucks and SUVs, not cars. Growth for Toyota Motors has been in Lexus brand and the addition of Scion. The best selling year for their lead vehicle, the Camry, was three years ago in 2004. Camry sales have been trending down, not up, in growth.

Currently what is helping Toyota, as well as other Japanese manufacturers, is they have small cars available from foreign markets that can be easily added to their mix of imports to meet the current midget car demand. On of the problems is buyers in that economic group do no buy another new car nearly as often as the average new car buyer in the US. History tells us buyers that move to small and midget cars, who can afford larger cars, soon move back up in size.

mike

Interesting point. What is the overall effect on the environment and what 'energy' do hybrids save? Do a search of the effect, at the Canadian source of the lead and the production of the batteries in China used in the Pruis, on the world wide ecosystem for construction and disposal of the batteries over seven years of projected use ;)

mike

Duh! When it comes time to sign on the bottom line the buyer already has ALL of that information Naturally you are free to believe whatever you chose. ;)

mike

Especially if they buy a Jap it would appear.

I doubt a search of the source of the lead would turn up much. They Nickel Hydride batteries, not lead batteries.

They will be constructed.

These are valid questions, which I have brought up before, as well.

Jeff

I never said anything to the contrary.

One would wonder why consumers ask salesmen, "How much is my monthly payment?" The information is right in front of the consumers before they sign the bottom line.

Jeff

Really, if you knew the monthly payment would include the final price after, trade-in and deposit, and interest why did you say; "Unfortunately, the question should be, "what is the price of the car?" The monthly payment doesn't include trade-in and deposit. It does include interest No wonder you always seem to be confused LOL.

mike

You would think they would ask that BEFORE the get to the point of signing on the papers - many people don't have a clue about how much a vehicle will cost monthly and their price points change once at a dealer and get pestered to buy an warranty... The cost per month would seem a reasonable thing to want to know BEFORE you get as far as the paper.

You would think so. But in the real world you have no idea what your payment will be until the F&I guys adds the 'cost' of the sale such as dealer prep. taxes, government fees, dealer fees, high profit items preinstalled on the vehicle by the dealer, required dealer smoke and mirrors 'options,' fair market value adjustments, interest etc...

The selling price is only a starting point. When I was in retail the partners could 'sell.you a Toyota' for $1,000 UNDER invoice for any car on which we added a $2,000 package that cost us $900 and that was before we took an extra $1,000 off the wholesale value of your 'creampuff' trade. Whatever brand you buy forget the selling price, be sure to get the TOTAL drive home price before you decide which to buy, WBMA. A 1% increase in the dealer portion of the interest rate on 30K loan can add $600 profit to the drive home price of the car LOL

mike